Advice? Maxie's Behavior Toward Achilles?

[Vladina]

Hi all,
A question has come up that I did not experience with my two previous ratties so this is new to me.

Maximus and his half brother Achilles are right at around 4 months and I seem to remember this is when their teenage aggression phase goes into higher gear, is that about right?



In the past week I have noticed a strange interaction with my two boys and it concerns me a bit. Maxie has always been the more hyper, aggressive kiddo, loves to jump on his brother and be a pain, etc.



Nothing I have not seen before but on three different occasions, I have seen him do a more fierce "jump/attack" type move that will end in a loud squawk from Achilles, but right after, Achilles looks like he goes into some sort of frozen mode where he will not move, eat, look around or anything, as if he is very scared, to the point of ignoring my attempts to pet or calm him, or an offer of a treat. As if he is thinking to himself,"oh my god, stand very still and don't move or make a sound or breath...Maxie is right behind me and I am afraid to even move an inch", and this is to such a degree that I can put a favorite num num in front of him and he will not even look at it, just straight ahead like he is comatose for a few moments.




Very strange and I never noticed anything like this with my former boys, even when they did their play fighting and quick freezes that I know are normal. This seems different because Achilles is not laying on his back with his feet in the air in the middle of a play tussle..the kind where one rat freezes in a submission posture, you know? He is fully upright, on all fours and just frozen, straight ahead.


Is this concern for thinking about getting Maximus neutered? Or am I jumping the gun?


I always thought that neutering was for when one rat is aggressive to a degree that he is physically harming another rat and figured it would be a "no blood, no foul" kind of rule, but if Achilles is living in some sort of nervous state around his brother and getting constantly "creeped out" or frightened by him, then that would not be cool for poor Achilles. Or maybe I am just blowing this way out of proportion? I hope this is not an epileptic thing on Achilles' part?? I just assumed he looks freaked out of his mind because of Maxie.


I will of course research this topic in the meantime and try to learn more about aggression in rats. I have some good websites saved that might have some info, but I also wanted to get some feedback from other ratty parents on the forum.

[lilspaz68]

Sounds like Achilles is a very timid rat and that Maxie is ramping up into hormonal aggression. The rats know...you might want to consider a neuter just to keep things happy in your cage especially since 4 months is a very young age to be getting into that hormonal phase. I find when its that early, don't wait.

[Vladina]

Thank you so much for replying to this Lilspaz, I really appreciate it.


So, I was not being the overly fretting rat mom after all, wow. I was expecting to hear, "Oh please, they are FINE."



Makes me feel better that my concerns seem to be valid. And Achilles is really a very loving and people craving ratty...we always say he is "a lover, not a fighter" and in all things he never seems timid, EXCEPT when Max is picking on him.



I have never had my rats neutered so I am assuming it is not as big and scary of an ordeal as I always pictured it? Surgery. Eeeep.



Perhaps some reading up on the FAQs of neutering is in order for me so I can gain some knowledge on this and banish the fears, eh? Rat parents never stop learning.

[breyer08]

I agree with lilspaz--it does sound like Max is a bit overly authoritarian, and that Achilles just doesn't know how to handle it. How often do they engage in this behavior? My boys used to wrestle a couple of times a week to a point where Russ would squeak pretty loudly, but all I had to do was go over to them and tell them to stop and be nice to each other, and they would calm down. If Achilles is truly petrified (literally), then neutering might be something to think about.

[Vladina]

Breyer, thanks for the post!!

I would say they do their "normal" tussle sessions/squeak/freeze activities several times a week as well. But this new, different thing with Achilles just freezing up and not moving at all, even after Max has walked away and I have put some oatmeal or something in front of Achilles, well, that has happened about 3 times over the past week or so. So it is a newer behavior I have not seen before.

Hmmm...

[lilspaz68]

You could watch and wait and see if they adapt to this new type of play? Maybe it will never progress for you and them.

[Vladina]

Yep, I was thinking that and then tonight Marc and I noticed that there is a reddish cut under Achilles' fur, right on his shoulder/upper back area. I did not notice it until today, as it is mostly hidden under his white fur. It is technically possible he cut himself somehow over the past day or two, but I am seriously wondering if it is a bite from his brother. I am not really sure what he could have possibly scratched or cut himself on, since he and his brother are constantly on fabric, fleece, flannel and blankets and there are no sharp edges in their house or in their outside playground area.
I am highly suspecting Maxie bit him.

[breyer08]

Hmmm, yeah, I would keep a close eye on them this week, and then make a decision based on your observations of their interactions. Since you didn't actually see Maxie attack him, it is possible (though admittedly not very likely) that he might simply have scratched himself by accident when grooming, or somehow scratched himself on something else. I bet it probably was an injury from a scuffle, though, so if I were you I would watch them very closely this week to see how things progress. If Max continues his aggressive behavior, then it would probably be a good idea to get him neutered sooner rather than later.

[Vladina]

Agreed. When we saw that red "cut" or whatever it was, under Achilles' fur we both just about cried, because he is such a sweetheart and so gentle. We think Maxie bit him unfortunately, and due to the behavior we have been seeing, we are leaning heavily towards neutering. We have always loved those endearing ratty goolies....I hate the thought of Maxie losing his!



But I keep remembering what Lilspaz said about keeping things happy in their ratty house. Maybe Maxie will be happier too, and calm down a bit. That little terror acts like he is on cocaine most of the time. Just a wired and aggressive lil guy. Awesome with Marc and I, but definitely acts like the bully at the drinking fountain with his brother. Poor Achilles.



The irony is, Achilles is about 10 times bigger and fatter than his brother. Maximus is SO tiny compared to Achilles. We should have switched their names, eh? I think Maxie has the famous Napolean complex. Trying to strut his stuff and be bigger than he is.

[lilspaz68]

Yeah that's a typical bite wound place for males...sounds like its escalated a bit. But remember for your sweet boy, these wounds barely bother them, there's very little nerves in that spot or even blood vessels, they are scary looking but as you said you often find them as they are healing.

[Vladina]

Thanks Lilspaz. Always good to be reminded of that.

Yeah, I always knew that those types of fight wounds are probably much more painful and traumatic for us humans rather than for the rat, eh?

Marc and I are soft bellied pushover cream puffs when it comes to that stuff (like you didn't know that, right? )

Hee.

Sigh. Well, time to get Maxie fixed up. It's settled.

[breyer08]

I'll be thinking about you guys, Vlad. I know it must be hard to have to do this, but it is the right decision. Your vet has always sounded marvelous with your boys, anyway, so I'm sure the recovery will be a snap! Let me know if you need anything.

[Vladina]

Aww, thanks SO much Breyer! And to you also Lilspaz.


Yes, our small animal vet is wonderful. Not only very experienced with rodents, but she has a very warm and caring bedside manner with our boys. We have been seeing her since way back, when we had our two gerbil brothers, Mick and Keith.



I will always remember when Dr. Kamaka did an ultra sound on Mick's tumor and gave me the bad news about his life expectancy. I cried buckets right there in her office and she patiently and tenderly handed me Kleenex after Kleenex, trying her best to comfort me and doing a good job at it. A good vet to have.



I will let you know how things go and thanks again to you and everyone for being such a great support group. What would I do without you guys?

(Lilspaz, as I know you are rescue rat pro, I keep thinking about you reading this post and thinking, "Sheesh, Vlad, I get my kids neutered ALL the time, no big deal, you wuss!" Heh heh)

[lilspaz68]

Quote: Originally Posted by Vladina (Lilspaz, as I know you are rescue rat pro, I keep thinking about you reading this post and thinking, "Sheesh, Vlad, I get my kids neutered ALL the time, no big deal, you wuss!" Heh heh)

Not one bit Vladina...I was terrified during my first neuters, I didn't have rat forums, and especially rat forum friends to ask questions, and lean on.

Something new always makes me a bit nervous, and you have seen me panic before...its not pretty LOL. Mostly about what I should do next, end of life questions (is it time?). Your vet sounds very good and rat neuters are very easy, but it also sounds like your vet likes your rat boys and will research before hand if she's not sure of the procedure.

[breyer08]

Yes, your vet sounds wonderful! I'm sure the operation will go smoothly and he'll be better in no time--and with a more gentle disposition.