Food aggression

[Scarlette]

This past week Sydnee has suddenly become aggressive with Mirra around food. It's to the point now that when the food bowl needs to be refilled we have to put Sydnee in her crate, let Mirra eat then let Sydnee out to eat when Mirra is done. We let Mirra eat first because if Sydnee gets to eat first that may further encourage her food aggression. Sydnee has shown no aggression to Jeff or I if we mess around with the food bowl while she's eating so that's a good thing.

For the past couple months there have been fights. Not serious enough where blood is spurting out, but serious enough that there have been small bite marks and we keep a close eye on them at all times. They are scolded if they are face to face or we see any aggressive body language. I kind of knew this was going to happen because Sydnee is constantly cutting in front of Mirra, bumping into her, pushing her out of the way if we're petting Mirra and not her. We've scolded her for that right from the start but it doesn't help. One day Mirra got fed up and grabbed on to Sydnee. It seems to happen about twice a week now. Usually it starts off as Sydnee bumping into Mirra, cutting in front of her, then Mirra gets fed up and grabs her. Just this past week Sydnee bit Mirra when the food bowl was filled.

I'm not sure if this has escalated because Sydnee came into heat and has raging hormones or what the problem is. I'm pretty scared because we'll be moved into our new house this week and I want to bring Scarlette with us (she's at my mom's house right now) but I can't justify bringing her into this mess. That would be horrible if Scarlette started fighting with Mirra and Sydnee, especially since she's about double their height and weight. Plus Scarlette is 7 years old now and I'm not sure how patient she'll be with Mirra and Sydnee and this type of behavior. She's a pretty easy going dog, as is Mirra, but if Mirra loses her patience with Sydnee then I don't think Scarlette is going to put up with it!

They are going to the vet tomorrow to be updated on shots and Mirra has another ear infection. I'm going to ask the vet's opinion on all of this while we're there. Plus Sydnee is to start obedience classes in July.....I couldn't get her into the current class due to her being in heat and plus my work schedule was already set in stone.

[Formula86]

I'm so sorry this is going on.

I know this is a delicate topic (sorry), but are you planning on spaying Sydnee? Is Mirra spayed? I know that same sex dogs tend to not do as well as opposite sex dogs.

Good idea to talk to the vet. Also, talk to the trainer you will see this summer.

I hope you get some answers.

[Jade]

Rhonda, I'm really sorry this is happening. I'm really beat and could add a lot more later, but in the mean time do a google search for 'dog sibling rivalry.' It's something our behaviorist treats regularly and is very common.

Hang in there. I'll try to grab a handout on it from our behaviorist if he has one and put it in the mail for you when I go back this weekend.

[kittygurl823]

Oh no Rhonda! I hope the vet might be able to give you some input.. Oh no about the ear infection! Jane and Steph had good advice, too. A behaviorist might be a good idea.

Quote: Originally Posted by formula86 I know that same sex dogs tend to not do as well as opposite sex dogs.

I think that, too! Jasmine and Penny are always fighting, more so than with Kahlua. I have heard that the girls tend to fight a little more so I'm wondering if that's it too? I'm sure the class this summer will be really great for Sydnee. Keep us posted!

[Brittney]

Aww... I really do hope things work out.
I hope your vet can give you some good advice to help stop the problem.

[jmb9101]

Rhonda, Grace and Harlie are the same way...they have their spats regularly. I do think its a girl thing and I seriously dont think that spaying would solve the problem (not that I think you are going to consider that option anyhow.) Har and Grace are both spayed and still fight. From everything that I have read before on this issue, you are doing what is recommended...letting Mirra eat first, things like that. When you are petting Mirra and Sydnee comes and cuts infront of her to get pet instead, completely ignore her and keep giving Mirra the attention until you are ready to finish petting Mirra. Then once she has backed off and calmed down, then if you want to pet her you can...she just needs to learn that its up to you when you pet her, not her. Its hard to do with a stubborn dog, which Harlie and Grace both are! Sometimes Grace will just get moody at Harlie even if Harlie isnt doing a thing at all to her. She will just growl at her and if Har comes too close to her she will lunge at her and start fighting. When Grace gets like that, right when I notice her mood has become aggressive, I grab her and put her in the kitchen by herself. (She doesnt like to be alone...) And most of the time it quiets her right up and within 20 minutes or so I can let her back in with us with no problem. Some dogs are just like that, and it is true about the female/female thing. They tend to fight more often...but I cant say Max never gets into them either...but 99% of the fights in our house have Grace in them, whether its with Harlie or with Max...she is almost always the instigator! Good luck with the problem...I hope you can find a way to solve it, or at least to help the situation calm a little so the fights arent so frequent.

[Scarlette]

Quote: Originally Posted by formula86 I know this is a delicate topic (sorry), but are you planning on spaying Sydnee? Is Mirra spayed? I know that same sex dogs tend to not do as well as opposite sex dogs.

Yep, that is a delicate subject but one I knew would be brought up when I posted. Neither are spayed right now. I'm still dealing with issues from Riley's death. Everytime Jeff and I discuss having the girls spayed I wind up getting teary eyed. At this point we've decided to spay Mirra but we'll use the vet clinic that did surgery on her leg. It's a 4 hour drive one way and will probably be triple the cost but I feel more comfortable having it done there. They can do spinals and epidurals there so the dog doesn't have to be so deeply sedated. If I ever get up the nerve to make an appointment it won't be until the fall anyway.

As for Sydnee, I'm still undecided. I'm still considering taking her to a show breeder and having her evaluated to be a show dog. They are disqualified if they're spayed, so we'll wait and see how that goes. Sydnee just turned 8 months old and she's almost as tall as Mirra and she's much wider in the chest and neck. As of today Sydnee weighs 43 pounds and Mirra weighs 45 pounds. Sydnee is rock solid and built like a brick house. If she continues to mature like this and her conformation stays good she just might stand a chance in the show ring.

I didn't realize that everyone else's dogs are spatting too and it's a common problem! That makes me feel a little better in a weird way. The first few times they fought I had thoughts of them needing to be separated for the rest of their lives. I've had dogs that had little tiffs here and there but they are actually grabbing on to each other so hard that it takes alot to get them apart. We've been really lucky that no one has needed stitches and there's no blood spurting out from gaping wounds.

We have no behaviorists any where close to me. I live in a rural area. The closest obedience trainers are 40-45 minutes away. The closest "behaviorist" is about 3 hours away.

The vet we had today was the same one that keeps saying Mirra has allergies. My usual vet is out of town. The only suggestion she had was the same that Melissa had....ignore Sydnee until I'm done petting Mirra. That's great advice and pretty much what we've been doing, but what do I do when Mirra is just walking around the house and Sydnee dashes over, cuts in front of her, bumps her, and then takes a little snap at her? I can yell at her until I'm blue in the face, threaten her with a rolled up newspaper but 5 minutes later she does it again.

Steph, I'll do a google search when I get home from work tonight. Thanks!!

Thanks to everyone for your advice and sharing your stories. It makes me feel better that my dogs aren't the only ones doing this.

[sara8]

my dogs are going trough the same thing. reggie will even go after player if he is eating his own food. we have to feed them seperate now too. they would fight so bad they scared me sometimes cause reggie goes right for players head and neck. i'm scared i will lose a hand if i get between them.

[kfielder]

I had this same problem when Daisy started to mature. I had an older dog at the time, and she and Daisy would get into it. We did have blood spurting. Sasha (the older dog) ended up at the vet twice and had to have about 6 stitches after one fight.



We were afraid Daisy was becoming vicious and were terrified we were going to end up needing to have her put down. We had a behaviorist come out, and he told us that this is pretty common with two females. A male dog will back down from a fight. Females will fight to the death. He evaluated both dogs and told us that Daisy was slightly more dominant that Sasha. While Daisy was a puppy, Sasha had dominated her, and now that Daisy was growing up and becoming more dominant (and much stronger), Sasha didn't want to give up that position. He said that in order to stop the fighting, we needed to demote Sasha in the pack, so she wouldn't try to maintain her dominant position over the younger dog. We needed to always give Daisy food and treats first. If Sasha came over while we were petting Daisy, we actually had to chastise her. If Daisy got after Sasha, we shouldn't do anything. If Sasha got after Daisy, we should scold her. Daisy always needed preferential treatment.

Honestly, I was a little hesitant to try it because it didn't seem fair, but I know that's a human response. We were desperate, so we did it, and never had another problem. It was amazing how fast Sasha accepted her new position and stopped challenging Daisy. We never had another fight.

It kind of sounds like you're going through the same thing. Sydnee is maturing and starting to challenge Mirra. The thing is, it sounds like you’re promoting Mirra and demoting Sydnee. Our behaviorist said it can be really dangerous to promote the wrong dog (the less dominant one). He spent a lot of time watching Daisy and Sasha at our house, then took them both out and tested them individually. I would really recommend that you get them analyzed to see which is more naturally dominant. If there's any way you can pay extra to have a behaviorist drive the three hours to come to your area, you really should do it. If not, you might want to drive the dogs there. It cost us close to $400 to have someone come out to our house, but it was very worth it. I have no doubt one or both of them would have ended up dead if we hadn't.

[kfielder]

Quote: Originally Posted by sara8 i'm scared i will lose a hand if i get between them.

If you have to break up a dog fight, don't get between them. I was told to grab the dog by the back legs and pull her away.

[Formula86]

Quote: Originally Posted by Scarlette Yep, that is a delicate subject but one I knew would be brought up when I posted. Neither are spayed right now. I'm still dealing with issues from Riley's death. I didn't realize that everyone else's dogs are spatting too and it's a common problem! That makes me feel a little better in a weird way.

I know it is a delicate subject. I just wanted to bring it up in case.

And yes - we have 4 dogs here and we have fights. You are not alone!!

[Scarlette]

Don't worry about mentioning it Jane. I have to get over it... eventually. It's been over a year now but I think I'll carry that scar on my heart for the rest of my life.

[Scarlette]

Quote: Originally Posted by kfielder He said that in order to stop the fighting, we needed to demote Sasha in the pack, so she wouldn't try to maintain her dominant position over the younger dog. We needed to always give Daisy food and treats first. If Sasha came over while we were petting Daisy, we actually had to chastise her. If Daisy got after Sasha, we shouldn't do anything. If Sasha got after Daisy, we should scold her. Daisy always needed preferential treatment. Honestly, I was a little hesitant to try it because it didn't seem fair, but I know that's a human response. It kind of sounds like you're going through the same thing. Sydnee is maturing and starting to challenge Mirra. The thing is, it sounds like you’re promoting Mirra and demoting Sydnee. Our behaviorist said it can be really dangerous to promote the wrong dog (the less dominant one).

In the beginning when Sydnee was a little pup Mirra would rough house with her and Sydnee was always submissive. Sydnee would automatically roll on her back and wrestle from that position. Even to this day when they play wrestle Sydnee always assumes the position on her back. Mirra was the first to lash out when she got fed up with Sydnee bumping into her, cutting in front of her, ect. Sydnee does it even if Mirra is walking around the house, minding her own business, no petting or treats involved in the scenario.

Now Sydnee is the one lashing out when it comes to the food.

So, right now, who is the more dominant one? Is it automatically Mirra because she was here first and she lashed out first? Or is it Sydnee because she has now proclaimed herself "the keeper of the food bowl" and continues to bump and push Mirra around?