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Originally Posted by clairebee1
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Then why put the dogs in that situation where one could injure another dog? Thats just being really careless.. Why do they need to bring the dog up to the other dogs? What just to show how "Agressive and strong" they can be? Im sorry but that is just out of order!
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It probably makes them feel like the big men. They face the dogs to chose the most dominant one. This is same poster who said these breeds always get long great with other dogs and basically said myself and vanillarat were full of crap when we mentioned some could be dominant. Some are also now breeding Kangals for fighting. UGH! Total opposite of what they are supposed to be. Few kennels have even gone so far as you cross in other breeds, these of course are no longer true Kangals but they are advertised as such and bought by people who don't know better. Ideally a Kangal should be able to get along with other dogs, I know several which live together in a home or with their flocks. They have to work together and protect against predation. Some have large breeding kennels though where the dogs are not socialized (kept in small pens or chains) and pick for aggressive tendencies.
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Originally Posted by misty fox
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I recently seen a video of the breeder of the Kangal dog watching 3 puppies in the litter and they litteraly waited until one pup tore up another one.. the smartest one ran off lol, now i'm a breeder and a trainer OF "Working Dogs" and i have had a few litters that there is a dominant pup or a bully but i'll be DAMED if i will STAND there watching until one of mine mauls another...... 
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That is not how they should be breeding but it is the sick truth of some. Exactly, it is up to the breeder to step in and be responsible if there is a bully in the litter or littermates going at it. I've had to deal with it a couple times, especially in APBTs but you don't watch and do nothing about it.
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Saying this I DO know that the Kangals, Ovcars just like the Sarplaninac ARE bred to kill massive animals in the wild, they are specifically bred for the farmers as flock guardians, protecting against Bears, Wolves etc.. i have also youtube fottage of the cunningness OF a wolf trying to kill the farmers stock and the dogs breaking loose to save their masters flock. This i can understand BUT in todays DAY AND AGE one would need to explain WHY the dogs are bred for this and make the rest of us understand. Many dont live on farm lands here.. well not on my side and if they do are not faced with these problems. |
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This is true, which is why you want a dog that gets along with others and other animals. There are some "not right" dogs of LGD breeds that would just as soon kill a sheep then protect it or is DA and fights with the other LGDs or one which is very dominant and can't get along with even less dominate dogs. These are not traits that you want in an LGD. Some will be more dominant and others less, they are usually good at sorting out rank so to speak on their own without any major fights and they work smoothly together. You can't have a DA one distrupting the pack.
More often they are there as a great deterant but will kill a predator if need be. Many wild predators back down and stay away, but some will try their luck. The fact that they are 9 out of 10 times a deterrent and don't have to fight or kill an animal is great IMO.
The reason they are bred for this is simple. People need their flocks protected. It is a much better alternative to wolf culls (where it is allowed for people to kill large numbers of wolf by shooting them or poisoning them) or having coyotes/wolves taking down animals and some getting killed (shot) in the process. It just works out much better this way. Usually no animals whether domestic/farm animals or wild animal getting hurt. The LGD keeps the predators away for the most part, they learn that the flock isn't an easy target.
I do understand not everyone needs an LGD of course. Just as not everyone needs a herding dog, protection dog, drug detection dog, hunting (trailing/hound type) dog or hunting catch dog.
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Perhaps if you give us a little history about this breed.. i know for one i'm certainly interested. But stating they are the best.. well we all love our own breeds... and for our own reasons. I recently had a Sarplaninac here at our place.. was a ggentle as a kitten with my puppy BUT was one **** of a stubborn dog to the point where he almost put me into hospital with a broken arm i still have scars on my arm form him, sadly he was 4 years old and was left to rot in one yard to another... These are not dogs to keep in surburbia, these are breeds that need contacnt traiing, immense amount of work and constant reminder who is TOP or ALPHA, these are dogs that are not for the novice either... a little summary would help that's for sure! (was going to show an image but got told i cant yet  |
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Sorry for your experience. Not all LGD breeds or individual dogs within the breeds are like that. Usually they are independent and can be stubborn, strong minded but can be taught some obedience. You can't expect most to be some super great OB trial dog. They were not meant for that. But again not all are dominant, stubborn dogs. I can't imagine how this dog would break your arm or scare you up. I don't have to constantly train. They are intelligent, just because they are not happy skippy for OB doesn't mean otherwise, they actually have quite a good memory. They can remember something that you've taught them or that happened to them for years without constant need for repetition and training drills. I agree they are not for most novice owners, most don't have a need for them or understand them. Although reminding who's alpha, maybe with some but I'm not even sure what that would consist of and its not something I have to do. I do run into some stubbornness but I stop and realize my being overly bossy and forceful just makes them not want to listen. If I take a calm approach and use positive reinforcement I get what I want. I don't have to constantly show I'm top or alpha, we have a respect for each other.
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as for the remark about kennels i can explain this much to you from my understanding of "Working dogs" (now i know this might not apply for all and i'm no expert) however as i train my lot they are also kennelled (mine are much much cleaner then these ones were shown) but my dogs are also crated.. i go thru periods in training to teach my dogs that being in a crate for a lengthy time is how it has to be.. BUT once i pull them out they are to work for me. I can keep Abby Or Chloe but more so Abby as she's older in my crate or Car for a good 8 hours if i need to. (now this is training.. so remember Abby is a personal protection ***** and needs to know when she's put in extreme situations). |
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I use kennels and crates for my dog sometimes. I think the difference between you and I are what our dogs use this for certain times or for training. Not for housing large numbers of dogs conveniently for breeding. You are right these breeds are working dogs too (just a different type of work) BUT their work should consist of guarding flock or family. Not being stuck in a small pen. There is no reason/work for them to do there. They like to get out, explore, survey the area, find a high point to watch, lay around until there is something that catches their attention. Especially a Kangal which is generally though not always more active then a Caucasian Ovcharka. They can do with covering more ground daily.
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I can understand some parts of small enclosures as they are working dogs.. however saying that mine are bigger  .. what i want to say before i completely waffle off is that working dogs are not pets... well not to some  .. sadly i dont fall in that category as I spoil mine with love, they are my children and i choose to do so. but most working trainers or owners will use their dog for a job then it's back in it's run and that's the life of the dog.. be it a flock guardian to a police dog OR security... I hope that clarifies SOME parts? |
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I guess I just can't understand it. If they are penned up and not working then it seems like oxymoron to me. They are not working dogs they are kennel dogs, probably used for breeding.
Um no a flock guardian is to be raised with the flock and live with the flock 24/7. If they are "back to a run" (many I know don't even have runs for theirs) then how could they be protecting the flock? The point of having an independent flock guardian is so they can be left with the flock.
I understand some kennel dogs are also working dogs. They might sleep in kennels but work stock all day with their owner. Beagles might be in kennels for part of the day then out in an enclosure together part of the day then hunting for hours other days. Some narco or patrol dogs are kept kenneled over night or when not working.
Oh I'd love to see your dogs also!
