Interaction between MSG and Seizure Medications

[VinceandBuca]

Hi - I am new here so not sure if I am posting in the proper spot. I own an Italian Greyhound and a friend of mine also has an IG, but there little guy has a seizure disorder, so he take Phenobarbitol and Potassium Bromide on a daily basis.

This has given him a tremendous appetite and he will eat just about anything. They feel bad for him so they pretty much will feed him anything they eat in addition to his dog food.

Anyway, the other day they gave him quite a bit of chinese food (beef and broccoli to be exact) I believe they gave him mostly beef, but not sure, and he has not felt well at all since then.

Question: Is Chinese food in general not good for him or could he be having a reaction to the MSG with the Pheno and PB?

Any input is appreciated.

[Mygala]

No.

This is really a no-brainer.

Human food, especially food high in sodium and sugars (like chinese food) is not good for any dog, especially one with health issues.

Instead of taking the lazy way (feeding the dog anything it will eat) they should talk to a knowledgeable vet and get the dog on a healthy diet. Since he has a good appetite, they can feed him healthy food instead the stuff you're describing.

Tell your friends if they really care for the animal, they'll take the time and trouble to take care of him properly.
bob

[leplake]

If it was a problem with the food it should pass fairly quickly, then they should know not to feed him that again. (dogs have very short GI tracts) Besides the soy and msg, why would anything we put in our mouths be safe for us and not a dog? The meat, and vegetables should not hurt the dog. How ever, if there were onions in the food that would make him sick. Onions are toxic to dogs. If you look on dog food labels, there are lists and lists of crap filler items on dog food bags that can be toxic if fed in great amounts. So if you feed a dog this, why worry about the "human" food?

"Human food, especially food high in sodium and sugars (like chinese food) is not good for any dog"

Who's to say that there is human food and not human food, is food not just food? And as for sodium and sugars, all kinds of treats and kibbels are filled with sodium and sugars, because it's cheaper to make bad un nutritious food than do it the right way. In actuality, alot of the food humans eat is better for dogs than the "dog food" we feed them.
I do acknowledge the fact that the dog has medical problems, (I don't mean to offend anyone, sorry, rant over )

[Mygala]

Food is not "just food".

Dog good, at least good dog food, is specifically designed to meet the nutritional needs of canines.

Human food is primarily designed to taste good, ...if it's nutritious, so much the better. Some tastes great, and is really bad for you. Most "fast food" (ie Burger King, McDonalds, Pizza Hut, etc) is specifically designed for it's palatability, ...if it doesn't taste good, you won't buy more. They don't have to publish the nutrition label on the packaging, so it's not as important to limit sodium, fats, transfats, etc. Consequently, they generally focus on taste, not whether it leads you down the road to hypertension or heart disease.

A study published earlier this year by the Center for Science in the Public Interest highlighted the problems with most "Chinese" food. Here's a small quote:

Quote: A plate of General Tso's chicken, for example, is loaded with about 40 percent more sodium and more than half the calories an average adult needs for an entire day. The battered, fried chicken dish with vegetables has 1,300 calories, 3,200 milligrams of sodium and 11 grams of saturated fat. That's before the rice (200 calories a cup). And after the egg rolls (200 calories and 400 milligrams of sodium)

If you look at the ingredients from the bags of dog good and treats (and I'm talking good brands, not some of the store brands from discount stores or pet stores) you see good ingredients and specific amounts of things like protein and fat, depending on what type of food you are buying (for puppies, old, overweight, etc).

If you have a diet that's better than that of your dog, I'd say congratulations. Most people don't. In fact most people have pretty bad diets (despite what they may think). Notice the huge increase in obesity in the United States. Diet is also affected by your locations in the country (traditional foods affect diet), and by your socio-economic status (inexpensive foods are generally more laden with sugars, high fructose corn syrup, trans fats and other bad things).

All things being equal, I stand by what I said earlier. Human food is generally NOT a good thing to pets. That's because most humans (in the US) don't eat human food that's all that good for them!

And it should be obvious diets that are specifically designed for a certain animal (For example, kibbled food for dogs, or pelleted foods for birds) are better than diets that are just randomly selected by a human for its taste ....say chinese beef and broccoli.

Especially for an animal with health issues and on medication.

bob

[leplake]

No, I disagree... Food is food. The food we process and turn to junk food is made with the same food as the junk food people give their dogs. Not only that, but the junk food they put in "dog food" is the parts of animals that have been deemed "un usable for humans". The companies who make kibble really are not in it for the health of dogs. They are in it for the money. Feeding your dog straight kibble or "dog food" is like feeding a child a big mac for every meal it's whole life. Dog food is also designed to "taste good" just like human junk, it's made to be palatable. Only thing is, a person can change what he eats. A dog who is being fed kibble cannot, if he chooses not to eat he'll starve. What you see on the labels of kibble is not necessarily what you think it is. Companies find ways to ad in synthetic vitamins (which are completely useless to dogs and humans) so they can list them on the package to show that it is a "complete" diet. When in actuality, the only way for the dog to obtain those needed vitamins is through nutritious food... and there is no vitamin rich food in the freezedried/dehydrated/baked/fried clumps of flour/grain/corn/meat BYPRODUCT that is kibble. So why are we feeding dogs food that isn't even safe to feed a human?
yes there is obesity in humans in the U.S...but look at our dogs.. do you not see the same thing? 90% of the labs I've worked with are extremely overweight. And this is a result of the money hungry kibble makers. They tell you to feed your dog more and more of these fillers, then when it gets fat, they sell you a kibble "low in calories" I too had an overweight dog, but I also had an under weight... my lab was 30 pounds more than what he needed to be eating kibble.. and on the same kibble my other dog was starving to death because he couldn't extract what he needed from the "food" So, I decided to switch to a raw diet... well, low and behold, the lab came down to a healthy weight, and my other dog rose to a healthy weight, and they both retain it. We DO feed them raw bones or chicken/turkey and often they do get our "human food" left overs. and it is 10 times healthier for them....
Yes there tends to be about 3 times as much sodium in human junk than good food, but kibble is exactly the same.
So no, "dog food" is not designed to make happy healthy dogs, "dog food" is designed to make companies rich. For a dog, beef and broccoli is actually a very good meal... even if there is a little soy/sodium, it's better for them than un nutritious kibble.(this particular dog may have been sensitive to something, but you never know until you try)
For this dog I would suggest they get him on a personalized diet, and stay away from just "feeding him what ever". But that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve nutritious food too.

[Mygala]

There's so much wrong with that post, I just don't know where to start.

I'd like to know where you get your "facts". From the sound of them, you like to look at some of the oddball websites on the internet. You certainly don't read veterinary or dietary journals, or talk to professional veterinary dietitians.:

Some of your questionable "facts":

Quote: ...the only way for the dog to obtain those needed vitamins is through nutritious food... and there is no vitamin rich food in the freezedried/dehydrated/baked/fried clumps of flour/grain/corn/meat BYPRODUCT that is kibble.

or..

Quote: there tends to be about 3 times as much sodium in human junk than good food, but kibble is exactly the same.

or...

Quote: Feeding your dog straight kibble or "dog food" is like feeding a child a big mac for every meal it's whole life.

Seriously, you really sound silly making proclamations like that. Especially because there is no good science to back them up.

For instance, a Big Mac is an extremely unhealthy meal for anyone, let alone a child. Obesity, hypertension and arteriosclerosis are just a few of the results of what you'd get from a Big Mac diet.

A good, appropriate dog food, fed in the proper amounts is not bad for a dog. Big Macs are.

Quote: Companies find ways to ad in synthetic vitamins (which are completely useless to dogs and humans) so they can list them on the package to show that it is a "complete" diet.

What exactly is a synthetic vitamin anyway? If you think that all the vitamins listed in a dog food are unusable by the animal, ...that's just ludicrous. I'd really like to see the proof of that.

If you like your RAW diet, go for it. It can be a healthy diet if done properly. Others have not found it to be significantly better than a properly fed kibble diet.

In the end, you seem to disagree with your own statement "Food is food". You obviously believe that kibbled dog food is crap, and that a RAW diet is superior.

I agree that a "natural" diet is probably superior to a kibbled diet However, most people don't really have access to the whole animal carcass that a canine predator would need in order to supply the organ/entrails/skin/hooves/etc. Feeding a dog raw food is not necessarily a better diet, it's usually just a different one.

Ultimately, the onus of the companion animal's health depends on the quality of the caregiver. If you pick up crappy dog food, you'll have unhealthy animals. You feed them good stuff (and there IS good stuff out there) you'll have happy healthy animals. Saying that all kibbled food is bad for dogs is just naive and wrong. There are millions of happy, healthy dogs in the USA alone that live their whole lives on kibbled food that's fed to them by responsible owners. Despite your personal experiences (as limited as they are), not every dog on kibble is unhappy, obese or underweight.

bob

[leplake]

I really wish people would be more careful about labeling people whom they know absolutely nothing about. I also wish people would leave room, and not take every word they read literally, It's a really not a very attractive trait. I wish people would use their brains. I feel like I've been personally attacked because I have different ideas. Thats one of the great things about this country.. (well, ideally) Every has a right to their own opinion. And opinions based on facts, even if the facts are different, are still valid. I'm sorry to say that you feel like I'm a looney. I'll admit, in my earlier post, I was writing in frustration, so maybe I wasn't clear enough with my thoughts.
Who's to say that I don't read dietary journals or talk to vets? Perhaps I do look at journals and speak with vets, just ones other than the ones in your circuscribed world.

"you like to look at some of the oddball websites on the internet."

I sure do, but I also look at other normal ones. I'm sorry you feel like you have to stick with main stream media. I personally have found a lot of extremely useful information from these "odd ball" websites. How do you expect to learn anything new or different if you only see what everyone else sees?
I have not spent years and years at school learning about animals, but that does not mean I know nothing about them, or nutrition.
Having been homeschooled, I've learned to pick up and learn anything and everything I can about everything. Because of my work,I am surrounded by very very dog savvy people including Vets, and trainers. In fact, what I told you about the synthetic vitamins, and how dogs obtain nutrients, came verbatum from the veterinary nutritionist vet I work with.
"What exactly is a synthetic vitamin anyway?"
If you have to ask this, what business do you have saying that dog food does not have them, perhaps I'll enlighten you. A synthetic vitamin is a vitamin that is chemically manufactured from patroleum, the same stuff used in the process of making gasoline for our cars. Yes, it is altered to work the same as "real" vitamins, but really only tricks the body... it also has the ability to kill if given in large amounts. They are sprayed onto the food...If the essential vitamins are in the food the "food" is made with it would not be in the ingredient list.. any time it's "added" or "fortified" it is a synthetic vitamin. If at all possible it's better to get your vitamins from a natural /whole food source.

" there tends to be about 3 times as much sodium in human junk than good food, but kibble is exactly the same."
It's too bad you have to take everything so literal, it really makes it hard to understand when someone is just trying to make a point.
And YES, dog kibble does contain too much sodium, high quality or not. It may not be exactly three times as much as a dog needs, but that does not change the fact. (raw meat is not to high in sodium)

"If you like your RAW diet, go for it. It can be a healthy diet if done properly. Others have not found it to be significantly better than a properly fed kibble diet."
In my own experience, I have NEVER seen a dog who did not do well on a raw diet that was fed CORRECTLY.. I'll admit, when I first started raw, I was ignorant, and did not feed correctly, when my dog started loosing hair, I researched... I understand that a dog would not do on a raw diet done wrong, but that is the human's problem, not the fact that it's raw.

"A good, appropriate dog food, fed in the proper amounts is not bad for a dog. Big Macs are."
If big macs were fed in the proper amount, the child would not get fat either.


"In the end, you seem to disagree with your own statement "Food is food". You obviously believe that kibbled dog food is crap, and that a RAW diet is superior."
yes, I do think raw is superior, and i think anyone who really knows about and feeds raw would agree. I think you are confused, I was refering to the "non food" substances they put in the "food".
"food is food" means synthetic substances are not food.
Pet Food Statement I also reccomend other papers from this site.

"Seriously, you really sound silly making proclamations like that. Especially because there is no good science to back them up."
Honestly sir, I think it is you who sounds silly, arguing with a 19 year old girl who obviously knows nothing about nutrition. Why dont YOU give ME some facts? I'm not talking about kibble company statistics, I'm talking about real life experience facts. hmm? If it were all up to scientific proof, pluto would never have been a planet. Science changes, get used to it. Perhaps my ideas are just too far ahead of todays science, maybe next year they'll catch up. So just remember when your looking at your stream line websites, take a glance at when it was made. With all the food recalls many many people are switching to raw, and finding it better.
So climb down off your pedistal, I'd rather not argue, i respect that you have your opinions, but in return I expect the same.

[Leo]

CALM DOWN!!! This has gotten so far from what the original poster was even asking.

Quote: Question: Is Chinese food in general not good for him or could he be having a reaction to the MSG with the Pheno and PB?

My answer to that would be: Chinese food IS NOT a good option to feed a dog, because of the MSG and Sodium in the food. Please have them talk with the veterinarian about a referral to a canine nutritionist who can tell them what foods would be appropriate for their dogs particular issues.

I will say this about Mygala... Bob has been here for over 2.5 years ... he is VERY credible and well respected... when he posts it is always seem to be well thought through with the animals best interest at heart ... I always find him to offer intelligent advice from well respected and credible sources..... Why don't you ask Bob what he does for a living!! .... oh heck I'll just ask him since we are already off topic.....

Hey Bob, what exactly is it that you do for a living? How many years of schooling did you have to go through to get your job? Is there continued education/ongoing research that you have to do in your field of work?

[Mygala]

My apologies to the original poster, for getting so far off topic.

I appreciate your kind comments Ally. Thankyou.

I also appreciate Laura's challenging thought processes, it's good to have debate on important subjects. I apologize for seeming to summarily dismiss her. Unfortunately, I've heard many of her arguments before, ...many times. This discussion has been going on for decades. Before you condemn all dog foods, you need to know more about them. Not everything is as cut and dried as you seem to think.

I asked about the "synthetic" vitamins because your general statement condemning them makes me suspect that you don't fully understand the complexity of that issue alone. There are fully-synthetic, semi-synthetic, and fractionated formulas for the vitamins used in pet foods. Each specific vitamin can be different in preparation. What's more, they all function the same, ...yet differently. From a basic nutritional point of view, they can be essentially the same (depending on which vitamin, and which formulation, and this can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, You cannot accurately make broad generalizations on pet foods as a whole). However, there are differences (some known, some suspected) in some of the other effects we reap from vitamins and their synergistic qualities. There have been tons of field tests on them, and quite a few other, more specific, studies that have generally shown the overall effectiveness of the various formulations of vitamins. Formulations that have been shown to be hazardous or ineffective are usually not used (at least to my knowledge).

This is why making a blanket statement that synthetic vitamins are all totally ineffective is just not an accurate representation of the facts.

For pet food manufacturers, I agree with you, the bottom line is important. They are, after all, a business. However, few would cut corners to save a few bucks in the manufacturing process if it's going to come back later and hurt sales. That's why many pet food makers dropped the use of ETQ (ethoxyquin) a couple of years ago. It used to be one of the standard preservatives. After a lot of bad press, many decided to use other (usually less effective) preservatives.

They bow to public opinion because pet owners are a fickle and emotional lot. When Iams got slammed because one of it's contractors used inhumane testing, ...most of the other pet food makers cleaned up their acts too. Most testing is now extremely animal friendly. If it were to come out (regardless of whether it were true or not) that kibbled foods were actually bad for animals, it could devastate the market for them. They make healthy foods because it makes good economic sense for them to do so.

They are even feeling some pressure from small manufacturers that are making organic, holistic foods. It's just not in their financial interest to make unhealthy foods.

This is the problem with this entire line of debate. Each particular item could be a class for an entire semester. To fully understand animal nutrition (which I don't think anyone does, BTW) takes decades of both field and laboratory observations combined with and intricate knowledge of organic chemistry and molecular biology.

As far as my credentials go, they really aren't that impressive or important. Education is not a valid indicator of intelligence. I know some farmers that have never been to high school that know as much or more about animals than some veterinarians. However, that is not to discount the importance of contemporary science and research in animal health and husbandry. It's all important, and as animal caregivers it's incumbent upon us to know absolutely as much as possible about every aspect of the animals we have.

At this point, I've hijacked the thread as far as I'd like. I'm outta here. To continue this discussion we'd need to start a thread on the subject.

bob