peeing in bed! help!

[Formula86]

I AM AT MY WIT'S END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok guys, if any of you have read my past messages, you know that my dogs have this habit of peeing or pooping on the bed. this occurs about every 1-2 months.

well, yesterday one of them peed on the bed. i was so mad, but i just cleaned it and let it go, deciding that from then on they wouldn't be allowed in the bedroom without me being in there.

so today i go to get in the bed and my foot hits...guess what....pee! uurgh! so i jumped out of bed and cleaned up really well. i also flipped the mattress for my own sake. they haven't been in here without me, which means that they did it while i was a foot away on the computer! i don't think it's cause they smell it because they have done this on my bed at my parent's and on my friend's couch.

someone a while back suggested that they were testing me and their limits. if they are doing this, how do i fix it? should i be firmer with them (more strict) ALL the time so that they will be constantely reminded who is the alpha female? should i hire a trainer or behavior therapist?

help guys!

[Deja]

Formula - ACK!! I'd be banging my head too!

My honest opinion is that if they have peed on the bed before - the scent has soaked through the mattress - it's virtually impossible to clean the *spot* because the urine wicks through and spreads out through the mattress filling. It's a TOUGH place to remove the scent from! Have you tried soaking Nature's Miracle all the way through the mattress and letting it air dry? That will help. Since you've flipped the mattress the urine has had a chance to *set* and wick - I'm thinking that even if you can no longer smell the urine, the dogs will be able to detect even the slightest hint of urine scent that might be impossible to remove.

My other suggestion is - do not allow them on the bed until you break the *trigger*. I just explained this in a post to someone else last night regarding their Papazon Chair.

*All* behaviors have a trigger, be it a scent trigger or an event trigger (an example of that might be habitual barking when they see a car drive by).
You must figure out the trigger and remove it - replace it with the desired behavior - in this case - not peeing anyplace except where they are supposed to.

First question: Which dog is doing it? Both? You need to figure out who is doing it - or - go through the behavior interuption process with both dogs at the same time. Since they are always together I'd probably go through the process with both dogs.

Since you can't remove the mattress from your room as the first step (obviously you need a place to sleep ) we have to get creative.

Do not allow the dogs on the bed. Period! Now you are going to think I am a crazy lady - but - you need to find a way to make the bed a *very* unpleasant place. I don't know what size bed you have so these suggestions may not be practical.

During the day do not give them access to the bedroom. If they need to be in that room keep them crated and when you are ready to start breaking the trigger - cover the bed in thick sheets of aluminum foil. When they jump onto the bed the sound and sensation will most likely scare them and they will jump down. If they do - the first step in the process of breaking the trigger has worked.

If covering the bed with something that delivers an unpleasant environment or sensation to them fails you can try a soda can half filled with pennies.

You must be consistant with this method. You are basically going to "set them up" then break the trigger by quickly shaking the can and saying "OFF!". Doing this a few times is usually all it takes for them to associate the bed with the scary noise and your "OFF!" command.
As soon as you see them move to get onto the bed you want to shake that can as hard and as quickly as possible - to coincide with the exact moment of them jumping up onto the bed. If you shake it once they are already ON the bed you haven't disrupted the behavior. This works differently then the other method because you are interupting the process at the point just before they reach their intended destination - the bed!

Don't be afraid of combining the 2 methods. They work well together

Those are just a couple of suggestions...

I'm sorry I was so long winded - as usual....
I really hope you can get to the root of the problem and stop it. It sure is frustrating - not to mention - really unpleasant for YOU!

Let me know what you think of my suggestions - there are lots of ways to solve the problem. The key is going to be getting to the very root of what is causing it.

[Formula86]

hi there. thanks for the suggestions. i really don't want to teach them to not ever go on the bed. that is where they sleep and i LOVE for them to sleep with me. it's almost worth having these accidents. i know how horrible that sounds...but it's true. it's one of my favorite parts of having pets.

i don't know which one is doing it, but i think it's been both. they have also done it to 2 areas where there is no previous urine smell (bed at parents', friend's couch). so i don't know how much the smell has to do with it.

is there any way to know WHY they are doing it? is it to challenge me? i'm thinking about having the mattress professionally cleaned, but i don't want to just to have them pee on it again. keep in mind that they have pooped too.

why would they do this to their OWN bed? they aren't in the bedroom if they don't have to be and during the day they are gated in the kitchen.

btw - i have a full size bed.

[Deja]

Hrrm- I don't think they are challenging you in the sense that I think you mean. They just don't think that way.
They could be doing it as a territorial display- to challenge each other though.
The one who leaves the strongest or freshest scent is displaying dominance and claiming the territory. Since a bed is pretty big for a tiny dog they can pee or poop on it and still have plenty of room to not sleep on or near the spot.

Since you want them in the bed - maybe you could put pads on the bed over the spot they use. This would at least protect your bed and give them a place to potty while they are up on the bed.

Can they jump off the bed? Just curious. I know Remy can't jump on or off my bed yet - she probably won't ever be able to.
If they can't jump off the bed - maybe they just have to go - and have no other option?

As far as there not being any scent on the other places they've urinated on -
if they are doing it as territorital marking - claiming the space - so to speak, any scent of another animal, not nescessarily urine scent, could trigger a marking display.

Maybe a consult with a behaviorist/trainer might help you determine the cause and teach you how to stop them from doing it?

If it's something you are willing to live with - maybe line your mattress with a waterproof mattress pad. At least it won't soak through to the mattress.

I gotta say - that's a tough one Formula!

[Formula86]

i'll answer your ques first:

i'm not going to use potty pads. been there, hated that. plus they don't go in the same spot every time. i wouldn't want to be sleeping and stick my foot in pee anyways.

they can both get on and off (remy will soon! ) penny has to use steps to go up (cause of her hip surgery) but she jumps off by herself and chaquita can clear a couch if she wants to. so it's not like they can't get down. plus this isn't happening during the night time.

i'd like to get someone to help me cause i can't figure out WHY they are doing it. the competition thing sounds probable.

argh! thank you so much though, deja.

[capnsweets]

I'd say take Deja's advice. Sure you'd miss sleeping with your pups, but is it really worth soaking in a pee stained bed? I mean I know pee spots around here smell nice and ripe once summer hits and it gets humid, do you want to sleep in a bed that smells of old dog pee?

Quote: I'd like to get someone to help me cause I can't figure out WHY they are doing it. the competition thing sounds probable

Deja is helping you free of charge! I can't believe you'd rather let them pee all over where you sleep then just train them to be off of the bed! Honestly it is mind boggling! You would HIRE someone who will probably charge you money to tell you the same thing! Really it is your choice but you need to read your reply where you say:

Quote: LOVE for them to sleep with me. it's almost worth having these accidents. i know how horrible that sounds...but it's true. it's one of my favorite parts of having pets.

Then you need to step out side and see what we are seeing. What I am seeing is that you would ultimately prefer a pee stained bed, matress, comforters, then to sleep with out your dogs.

I understand you are asking for advice, and you can chose to ignore the advice or not take it, but to me you just sound kind or irrational about it. If you feel like hiring a behavorial specialist will help, and you can afford to, by all means. I hope they can help your pups. I enjoy snugging with the cats but if they were urninating all over my bed,as much as it would sadden me, they would not be allowed on our beds.

[Pure14K]

Quote: Originally Posted by capnsweets I'd say take Deja's advice. Sure you'd miss sleeping with your pups, but is it really worth soaking in a pee stained bed? I mean I know pee spots around here smell nice and ripe once summer hits and it gets humid, do you want to sleep in a bed that smells of old dog pee? Deja is helping you free of charge! I can't believe you'd rather let them pee all over where you sleep then just train them to be off of the bed! Honestly it is mind boggling! You would HIRE someone who will probably charge you money to tell you the same thing! Really it is your choice but you need to read your reply where you say: Then you need to step out side and see what we are seeing. What I am seeing is that you would ultimately prefer a pee stained bed, matress, comforters, then to sleep with out your dogs. I understand you are asking for advice, and you can chose to ignore the advice or not take it, but to me you just sound kind or irrational about it. If you feel like hiring a behavorial specialist will help, and you can afford to, by all means. I hope they can help your pups. I enjoy snugging with the cats but if they were urninating all over my bed,as much as it would sadden me, they would not be allowed on our beds.

I'd have to agree 100% with what Capn has said... I would never be able to sleep in urinated on bed, let alone have it keep happening just to sleep with my animals...

Good luck

[Formula86]

thank you guys for your opinion, but i don't need anyone pointing out how "irrational" i am. i think i understand how everything i say sounds. i stated in my first posting that most people would think i am nuts (in diff words), so i see things clearly and i see the big picture. if they were doing this every other day, or if it wasn't correctable in any other way, i would train them to not be on the bed at all. but i think it can be fixed some other way. my priorities are different than yours.
also, i understand that deja is giving me advice for free (and it is WONDERFUL advice), but i don't think that online help can take the place of someone actually meeting with my dogs in person and knowing all of their medical history. this is in NO way a dig at deja...i think she will understand what i am saying.
thanks again for your opinions.

[RSbunny]

I'm sure that Linda will understand what you are saying formula. I don't allow any animals on my bed, cause it's my bed, they have their own but I do understand you wanting them with you. And I do agree that having someone come out to see you and someone that can see the dogs behaviour for themselves can also be useful. In saying that Linda is amazing and I am sooooo glad she is on this forum cause she helps me heaps but even with all of her help I am still going to enrol Biscuit into dog training just cause I know I will learn more again from these people and want the visual contact too. Even just with basic commands which Biscuit is quite good at...I want to make it clear to her that I am boss. Good luck wioth everything Formula. Ive never had a problem like this, my dogs are outside a lot and all my past dogs have picked up toilet training quickly. Nacho used to mark his territory at my mum's place towards the end but he had soooo many different problems he just couldn't be helped where as this isn't the case with your dogs.

[Formula86]

thanks carmen. yes i totally love that linda is here too! and that is why i have one more question for her (haha):

what about just not letting them on the bed without a person being on it (only at night to sleep and if i am up there with them)? i have wireless internet on my laptop so i am online in the living room mostly anyways. i think this will help. they haven't been in there all day. alsooooooo, i am getting the house soon, so they will be outside a lot more which i think will help with potty training (doggy door = go out whenever they want) plus they will be more tired. what do you think?

btw - they do have doggy beds all over they apt.

[Deja]

First of all - thank you for the compliments you guys. You guys rock

The bottom line is this:
I can only offer advice and suggestions based on the written word and information I am given.
I am not there to assess the dog's temperament or behaviors in person and that does make it much harder to make an evaluation and put together a plan.
I encourage everyone to enroll their dogs into some type of Obedience class. I also encourage people to consult with and/or hire private trainers (if your budget allows, I know prices vary depending on where you live and the reputation of the organization or trainer).
If anyone is running into difficulty with the training process and experiencing frustrations or are faced with troubling behaviors, Trainers can teach you as long as you are open to the process.
The first thing a good Trainer will do when he/she comes into your home is sit and watch. They'll observe you and your dog/dogs. They observe how you interact with your dogs. They will assess the situation. To me a good trainer doesn't train your dog. A good trainer trains YOU to train your dog. There are many, many things a trainer can help you with - from establishing an Obedience Training schedule - to teaching you how to solve behavior specific problems.
That said:

Quote: what about just not letting them on the bed without a person being on it (only at night to sleep and if i am up there with them)? ... i think this will help. ... i am getting the house soon, so they will be outside a lot more which i think will help with potty training (doggy door = go out whenever they want) plus they will be more tired. what do you think?

OK, First of all. The more you introduce to them as possible solutions really has the potential to backfire and totally confuse them.
I'm not saying that once you move and teach them to go outside and inside at will that you'll have any problems with that particular training process. I am saying that we need to take into consideration how dogs learn. They will not associate going outside when they want to or being tired with not peeing on your bed. They aren't wired to make those kinds of connections.
Quite simply, dogs learn in layers. Each behavior is a layer on top of a solid concrete expectation that we are wholy responsible for laying out clearly, consicely and making sure they understand.
So for now, let's remove the future from the picture and deal with the present. We have the capability of seeing the future potentials. Our dogs only know what we want from them today. As we build the foundation of behavioral expectations the goal should be to set them up for success with positive rewards to reinforce.
Success = positive reward.
Failure = negative consequence.
The successes and failures are all in our hands.

You need to be clear on your ultimate goal. If your ultimate goal is to stop them from eliminating on your bed - period - I wouldn't confuse them at this point.
My personal belief is that you need to make it as simple for them to understand as possible. No peeing on the bed means - no bed.
It *may* be possible to let them on the bed while supervised once you are sure you've removed the trigger to eliminate there. I can't be sure about that though since the behavior seems pretty engrained. They've claimed that bed and may be very reluctant to give it up!
It is going to take some time.
I'm thinking that would include:
Removing all urine scent. As I said, even if you can no longer smell it, they certainly can. A mattress is a thick absorbant object and wicked urine can be "scented" through the entire thing - even if they've only peed in a couple of spots. Does that make sense?
Smelling their own urine (or each other's) is an invitation for them to urinate. It's a trigger.
Catching them "in the act" trying to urinate anywhere they aren't supposed to and delivering a loud harsh "NO!" while you quickly scoop them up and put them in the proper "potty place", then praising them when they perform goes a long way to reinforce where they are and aren't allowed to "potty".

Basically- what I am saying is - Keep it simple. Keep it basic. Know exactly what you want and make sure you convey it to the dogs so that they are perfectly clear with what you expect. Don't leave any wiggle room. The wiggle room is their crack to slip through and fail.

I think we've all experinced that! I know I can name a dozen things over the years that I've had to "rethink" and get creative with when finding the solution because I unknowingly left a crack for them to slip through!

Believe it or not I am currently consulting with someone with a male Yorkie who is "marking" his house... Totally new breed for me to be working with. (I'm learning with Remy!) I am trying not to leave any wiggle room with the people when I help them re-train their dog!

Sorry that was so long...
Someone should really put a timer on my mouth/fingers
I hope you are able to find a solution that works for you

[Formula86]

i think what i'm going to do is just not let them be on the bed unless we are going to bed at night. they understand the words "get off", so i don't think it'll be that big a hassle. plus i've just been keeping my bedroom door closed all day. also, i'm going to get the mattress professionaly cleaned before i move.
do you think that all of this will do the trick? is this simple enough for the dogs?
thanks again deja!

[Formula86]

ok update:
dogs on bed? no more! just two nights ago chaquita actually pooped on the bed when my best friend was sleeping on it! groooooooooooooooooooooooooss! i couldn't believe it. i knew it was chaquita cause penny had just gone outside and pooped. so i made them sleep on the floor last night. i had to tell each of them about 8 times each to get "off" the bed and they finally stayed down, but cried or growled for like 30 min. then when i woke up in the morning they were both on the bed. i don't know how i'll keep them off all night. but they are not allowed on the bed during the day. ever. penny is easy cause i can just take her stairs away and she's stuck. but at the same time, chaquita listens more. so hopefully this will work. i'm thinking about using a clicker (which i already have, but have never used) when i say "off". from what i know about penny, she is scared of them. i think chaquita would be too.
how does this sound guys???????

[Jodi]

Quote: Originally Posted by formula86