My PitBull

[Leo]

I think the main point should be that the OP's dog was loose, it got picked up by animal control (thankfully) and the OP has hopefully learned a valuable lesson. The fact that this dog was/is a Pit Bull has literally NOTHING to do with the fact that she was picked up by animal control, but it does contribute to a bigger issue (see below). Animal control was just doing their job. As far as whoever called on her dog, well I call on loose dogs all the time, none of which have been Pit Bulls so far. I once called on a very friendly little shih tzu that was ruining loose without tags, if it had tags on I would have been able to call the owner and not animal control.


The one thing I agree with crys on is this:

Quote: If the OP didn't let their dog roam, it wouldn't be able to do anything bad without you supervising it. So lets say a child wandered by and started taunting your dog and it rightfully defended itself, that would now be in the headlines as "Pit Bull" attack and the OP of this thread would be at fault. Granted, nobody should taunt a dog but you should never willingly put your dog in a situation to have to defend itself. Accidents happen, letting your dog roam is simply an accident WAITING to happen. Aside from a lawsuit, for your dogs safety, your heartache, etc... for OTHER Pit Bull and dog owners- PLEASE don't let your dog roam. Common sense really... you'd think.

Pit bull owners who complain that BSL is coming/here, and still allow their dogs to roam loose without tags are part of why we have BSL looming over our heads. I have a hard time feeling bad for Pit Bull owners who contribute toward the bad image people have of Pit Bulls.

[Spicy_Bulldog]

Quote: Originally Posted by ItIsMe I read your post just fine and I am sorry if I ticked you off but uniformed people are my pet peeves. But any way what I said was that they used to be used to fight bulls with other pitbulls and that they would not fight each other they would fight the bull. Originally pitbulls where a team, and fought against the bull as a team. Why would people put dogs that where aggressive to other dogs in a pit together? Thats what I was trying to point out the first time. No Pitbulls are not bred for fighting when bull fighting was no longer accepted by Society the breeders of pitbulls over the years bred that out of them. They no longer feel the urge to fight it is so distant a trait in them. Yes don't get me wrong there is them people who take the breed and use that trait illegally. Go to Puppyprofit.com and you will see what i am talking about. But it is not accepted by every body and not every breeder participates in this. but as I said before any dog with teeth can and could be dog aggressive given the right circumstances. Sorry if I seemed offensive Vanilla_rat. In my area there is people who get together at a place we call the bull run once a year and there could be thousands of pitbulls there. Its a very fun but very catiuos day we have at least one accidental fight that needs broken up every year. People bring there dogs with muzzles on but by the end of the day the muzzles are removed and the dogs are enjoying there selfs as well. we have plenty of water on hand but we never feed them because most dogs are very protective over there food. I will have to post pictures of this years frenzy all of my pits go and they come home tired and ready for bed. I just hope that in the future more and more people educate them selfs about the breed and have the wonderful oppurtinuty to own a sweet little guy.

Uninformed people are a pet peeve yet you are uninformed about your own breed of choice.

Yes they were used to control cattle/bait bulls, bulldogs were. That is why they were called bulldogs, which was not any specific breed, they were called this because of function. The terriers were used for ratting and keeping down other pest and vermin. These things are true of the APBTs ancestors. Yes they worked together, there would be a team of dog to bait the bulls they were not heavily used or bred for fighting. Once bull baiting was banned the popularity of dog fighting increased, thus was born the roots of the modern APBT. Since Pit Bulls have been selectively bred to fight and for fight drive (which means dog aggression) for over a 100yrs that is why they (not all but some) still retain it. I do not know what is gained by denying the APBTs heritage. The UKC (United Kennel Club) a dog registry that was created to register fighting dogs, also created a set of pit rules, champion titles were awarded to fighting dogs and they kept pedigree records. The UKC rules themselves were used into the late 1980s and early 1990s. As far as pit matches prior to UKC they kept track of wins but no titles were given and they also kept handwritten pedigrees created by the breeders. The breeders of the APBT bred them for dog fighting and there is really no way around it. You could say the ancestors were bred for bull baiting but then you could also say they were bred for this or that depending how many 100 or even 1000s of years you want to go back. It seems what is closer in their history would be more important and have more bearing then what is so far back, it is trivial to even mention. Most APBTs bred them for fighting with a few who might have bred and kept their own for other purposes or bought a fighting bred dog as a pet or maybe even comedy star like Petey (he was in the Our Gang comedies and did other shows too). To say that it is distant and they no longer have the fight drive is not at all true. It depends on the dogs breeding, bloodline and individual dog, for even a dog from a gamebred litter could be cold. Just as some pups from a show bred litter might grow up to not be dog tolerant. To say none of them are DA and its been bred out of all of them would be like if Vanilla_Rat said all Pit Bulls are DA and want to fight. Neither is true. How far back are the fighting dogs in your Pit Bulls pedigree? That can certainly make a difference of her not likely to be DA if they are fairly far back and the breeder has selected against DA dogs. In time more and more APBTs will probably be less DA, but it takes time for it to be a loss trait.

As you mentioned that bull baiting dogs worked together and this is true, even today after APBTs have been bred for dog on dog combat for so many years there are dogs working together on hogs. Catch dogs are selected for their lack of DA and ability to work together. However there is no guarantee a pup will be not ever develop DA. That is why some of the dogs are placed in homes where they will not have to work with others, but can work alone doing weight pull or maybe just be a pet. They would rather fight the other dogs then work to catch and hold the hog. The owner can try to keep that dog in check and work to control their will to fight but in the end it is much better not to use them since there isn't a guarantee that the dog won't still one day fight another dog disrupting the catch and the dogs job.

We wish it was a distant trait in all APBT, so that we did not have to deal with it and work to manage and control it. Just like some wish that about prey drive although prey drive can be used for jobs and working purposes, most pet owners though don't care for it.

It isn't acceptable by most, of course every breeder wouldn't be out fighting their dogs. It is more so the fact that they were used for fighting so long and many haven't had the aggression completely bred out of their lines just yet. Reading Vanilla_Rat's reply I don't think that she meant to say all Pit Bulls will be DA, that no breeder has been successful in breeding it to a lesser degree or mostly out of their line, ect.

Quote: Originally Posted by Crys For a pet forum, I'm disgusted to see some of the comments here. An aggressive trait CANNOT, and I repeat, CANNOT be BRED into a dog. Tenacity is one thing, not aggression. Dog aggression is popular among ALL breeds, especially when poorly socialized. It took me so long to get past the ridiculous rumors that people (even "experts") spread with conviction. You may like Pit Bulls, but you're doing them a major disservice to say that they "tend" to have ANY sort of aggression. They're freaking DOGS just like any other, nothing less, nothing more! Any dog can be dog or human aggressive based on their breeding (level of tenacity, dominance, energy, etc), and upbringing. The most tenacious American Pit Bull Terrier (or any breed) can still be dog friendly in the hands of a responsible owner, and vica versa.

I would think as a pet lover you would be happy to see responsible people telling of their breed(s). Breeders and fanciers alike need to let others know the good and bad about their breed. That way they can be prepared to deal with it if those traits arise or know what to expect from their new pet or if that breed is even right for them. A lot of problems with dogs and owners is the owner not chosing the breed that best fits them and their lifestyle. Every breed is not for everyone.

I would not at all believe that dog aggression is popular among all breeds. Some breeds dog aggression would be quite rare to manifest (even without socialization), in other breeds it is more likely to be seen even with proper socialization. You can most certainly breed in aggression. That is a silly thing to say, that you can not. Some breeds are bred with dog aggression and others with human aggression. Some products of poor breeding have aggression bred into their line. If you couldn't breed for these traits there would be no reason to even study on bloodlines. In both Labs and Pit Bulls human aggression is a fault and something they are bred against. If you could not bred it in then there certainly wouldn't be a need to breed it out. Just the same there are some bloodlines within the APBT that are known for being aggressive towards humans because of the lack of culling HA dogs or even worse breeding for this temperament.

You do disservice when you want to deny negative traits in a breed and pretent they have no undesirable tendencies. This is not only with Pit Bulls but any breed, good breeders and owners truly wishing to educate others about their breed will tell the truth about the positives and negatives. This helps the dogs get matched up with the right owners. It gets tiring to see undeucated people getting into trouble with dogs because they didn't know better. Then there are always the ones who think they know it already. I personally do not want to get another call about a pit fighting/killing after warning the owners never to leave them unsupervised just because "they were raised together", "they are pets not fighting dogs" "they are not aggressive to each other" Well those were all facts If I thought their dogs were dog aggressive I wouldn't have allowed them to play with my dogs, just the same I knew them being dog friendly didn't take away the ability they might have if a fight should start. I do not want to see another novice owner who thought that with obedience classes/socialization it will be fine. Then become shocked and panicked when their dog won't let go of another in a fight. A lot of this can take away my right to own a Pit Bull because others do not understand their possible abilities, take precautions, watch warning signs and do not know how to stop a fight just in case. Even if another dog attacks theirs the Pit will likely be seen as the evil one, especially if they serious injure the other. I can not allow people to live in a bubble. We tell the truth because we love them, don't want to see more PTS because of the owners mistakes and don't want to give more fuel to BSL. Just like I did not warn my Aunt about the nose of beagles just to create BS about beagles I did so because I wanted her to be aware that she could be a roamer. Maybe she learned her lesson after the dog got out of the window and was found over 10 miles away. Beagles will be more likely then other breeds to follow their nose. Yes all dogs can possibly find a scent and follow it, but the beagle tends to on average.

You are right they are dogs like any other breed they have been selectively bred for certain traits. As you said the breeding goes into making the dog along with how he/she is raised, breeds are bred for certain jobs so their traits are going to be different and they are going to have different tendencies. If they did not it would be silly to have different breeds. Since dogs are derive from wolves we can see how we have changed their temperament by selective breeding. Wolves are usually not going to be friendly to those outside the pack, yet we have bred some breeds to be very friendly with strangers and social with unknown dogs. We have modified their prey drive to a herding instinct in some. While unforuntately some have bred for the non dog tolerant and aggressive temperament.

Quote: The only issue with "Pit Bull" breeds is that everyone THINKS they know what they're talking about (when most don't) and they get a bad reputation from a few bad incidents which are 99.9999999% of the time because of the owners.

So who would this be. Don't you believe you know what you are talking about or would not be posting it. I will admit I don't know everything and still love learning more. I couldn't agree more it is the owners for sure.

Quote: If the OP didn't let their dog roam, it wouldn't be able to do anything bad without you supervising it. So lets say a child wandered by and started taunting your dog and it rightfully defended itself, that would now be in the headlines as "Pit Bull" attack and the OP of this thread would be at fault. Granted, nobody should taunt a dog but you should never willingly put your dog in a situation to have to defend itself. Accidents happen, letting your dog roam is simply an accident WAITING to happen. Aside from a lawsuit, for your dogs safety, your heartache, etc... for OTHER Pit Bull and dog owners- PLEASE don't let your dog roam. Common sense really... you'd think. I'm sorry to come off so blunt... but I haven't posted on this forum for a long time. Decided to pop in and saw this... my heart is racing from some of the comments. It's so upsetting to hear pet lovers actually spread some of these false beliefs as though they're experts on the topic.

I do think that is the biggest issue. The owner is complaining because AC did their job. With no tags they did not know where the dog belonged. If the dog attacked a child for simply taunting them then the dog has a problem. Yes it is the owners fault, no doubt about it, uncontained and unsupervised is not how any dog should be left, but especially one with an unstable temperament going against its breed damage. It would be another tragic story, another child with trauma and a big shame damaging the Pit Bulls once noble reputation even further.

I agree on both accounts no one should taunt the dog but the owner shouldn't have left the dog out there like that. Letting your dog roam is doing nothing to keep them safe.

If you are speaking of DA Pit Bulls being likely to become DA at maturity is not a false belief. I don't claim to be an expert, I learned what I know not simply overnight but years of reading, studying, researching, talking with other owners and long time breeders and by observation and experience. Are you trying to be an expert on APBT saying these are false beliefs? Why does the word of those who know the breed very well mean they are trying to talk as experts who actually don't know anything? No matter the breed they all have traits and trying to convince those who dedicated a great deal of their life that they have no clue what they are talking about will not get very far. No matter the breed in question from Ridgebacks, to coonhounds, to GSDs.

[Leo]

Great Post Spicy_Bulldog!!! Very Informative..

[Vanilla_Rat]

Very good,informed post Spicy!!

[Crys]

PLEASE PLEASE actually read my posts... I'm not trying to start trouble. I'm very serious in how badly some of you come off about Pit Bulls in general. It's such a sensitive issue, and the ignorant are generally the ones who speak with conviction. Don't state "facts" about these dogs unless you KNOW, and I mean REALLY know. It's not my pride causing me to say anything at all... lives, family pets are at stake all of the time based on how you make others perceive these dogs.


Vanilla Rat- Do you even know anything about me and what I know to suggest that I need to "learn"? You think a google search is enough to condemn these dogs to a stereotype of dog aggression? If you actually read my post you'd see how I said that even so-called "experts" claim this, but it's nonsense (and you claim experts say this, afterward ). Please go ahead and explain the science to me about how aggression can be "bred" into a dog. You're saying that no matter what, it was bred into them, so it will be. Yeah... expert my behind... it's nature vs. nuture... we can go in circles for hours, eh?


I have enough experience that the ONLY reason I bothered posting among the "know-it-all" nots is to make sure that visitors would realize that JUST because people are saying something on pet forums doesn't mean they are the know all on these topics.


I am the mom of a four year old Pit Bull that we rescued. Aside from my own EXTENSIVE knowledge of the breeds (and many breeds), had every "expert" telling me to socialize because of the tendency to be dog aggressive. Every class possible, competition, etc. People told me "Every Pit Bull will test you by the time it's 3 years old" and a million other nonsense myths... once my dog hit one year old I started getting nervous introducing them when on leash to new dogs, base JUST on "experts" opinions. It didn't take long after my attitude change for my dog to develop leash aggression toward unknown dogs.


Within a few months of this occasional barking on leash at passing dogs, I realized that it was MY negative energy that was causing the problem. At parks, classes, at family's house etc he was fine with other dogs. My dog is very in tune with me and every time I'd see a dog on leash that we didn't know I would tense up in fear that "today may be the day my dog stops liking dogs". So I realized that I KNOW my dog is sweet, good, tolerant, and all of the wonderful things dogs are... and guess what... it stopped. So before you feed into peoples minds that this is THE way- realize that each dog is an individual and AGGRESSION CANNOT be bred into a dog's breed. There are MANY breed traits, but aggression is not one of them. You're all mistaking tenacity for aggression... two VERY different things. If you were well informed on this topic, you would all know that. Aggression is a STRONG word contributing to BSL... please be careful of how you use it.


The majority of "Pit Bulls" in the USA and Canada are not pure bred American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers OR Staffordshire Bull Terriers anyway. They're mixes by BYB's or oopsie litters. So explain your "bred" in dog aggression (or any aggression) there. It's SO rare to find a PURE BRED American Pit Bull Terrier these days that it's insane... and I'm talking reputable breeder, proven linage, APBT.


Leo- I have a hard time feeling bad for irresponsible owners of any breed really too... but I feel bad for the good owners with good dogs who are punished at the hands of the irresponsible owners. I also feel horrible for the dogs of the irresponsible owners, because they are the ones who will pay.


Spicy Bulldog, you definitely know how to lay it on thick and make others think that you are responding properly... but there is too much wrong to even bother responding to. I never said they are too distant to be dog aggressive... I simply said AGGRESSION is NEVER bred into a dog. Again, confusing tenacity with aggression is dangerous. Aggression is a STRONG word and many use it poorly. You tell me I'm uninformed of my breed of choice yet you don't even know me or what I do. Honestly, responding to you is too draining because you jump to conclusions about my intentions, what I mean, what I know, and the facts.


I'll leave it at that. You're probably a great person and in person I would get my points across more effectively to you. However, I do not have the time to sit and try to make you open minded that you may not be on point about everything you say.


I know the entire history, did not learn what I know over night either. I can sit and try to make myself sound like an expert, but again this isn't' a pride issue and I only posted to let you know that this belief you have isn't 100%.


I'm simply saying that certain traits are breed traits, and other traits are not "bred" into a dog, and that in ALL dogs DA is a risk at maturity- definitely more prominent in dominant or tenacious dogs. Though, it's tendency to actually become an issue is usually due to a fault in the owner- not the dog. Every breed has positive and negative traits... usually more positive than negative as dogs are wonderful creatures. However, it's important to remember that breed does not separate one dog from the other so vastly that it makes them completely different animals. They are ALL dogs... the most wonderful and loyal animals we have the privilege of living our lives among.


For example, I know MANY dog aggressive hounds... and that's pretty much the opposite of what most hounds were bred for. Yet hounds are also bred to be tenacious... that tenacity can turn into aggression toward other dogs if the proper owner/handler/trainer isn't working with them.


This will probably be my last post on these forums as I'm constantly fighting BSL and wrongful stereotypes everyday... I don't have the energy to debate with all of you about it too. Especially for people who have the access to this knowledge in the first place. Maybe bothering was a waste of my time... who knows. I try.

[Kendalle]

I think this thread should be closed as all it was about was you not having your tags on your dog, letting it out unsupervised, and it getting taken to the pound because of it.

We said that you should always have tags on your dogs especially if you let them out, for someone else's dog or your dog could be dog or person aggressive, either because of taunting or any other reason.

It's just responsible pet care.

[Leo]

I agree Kendalle...

I think some posters are attacking others over a few small details... chances are they both agree with each other on a lot of issues that responsible Pit Bull owners face.

[mulder]

YES! Close it!! My goodness people! I practically pulled up some popcorn for the show.

[Purple-Hops]

<um,ok> i ,too, agree this should be closed-

[Jade]

Yep, closing the thread. If you wish to further discuss the current topic, please PM the poster.