Owning a Fox

[sarah3232]

Why don't you just have a dog as these are wild animals. Foxes are naturally nervous animals and maybe it would be unfair to have them in a domestic environment.

[Chinchi]

Foxes are used on fur farms.
It is these animals that some people sometimes buy as "pets".
I don't really see the problem in this, as long as you know what you are getting yourself into.
So it's not all true that the foxes some people own are wild animals. They are bread in captivity, not in the wild, and I'm not sure they would be able to survive in the wild.

I've posted this before:
http://www.familienlorentzen.dk/204946

I know you can't understand what it says, but I think it's quite fine to own a fox if it lives like you can see on the pictures.

[Nall]

I think raising a fox is possible, but it'd probably take a lot more time, responsibility, and patience than it would with any other pet. and I think I'd rather raise one as a cub.

[MiAmor]

Why not go for a Shiba Inu? They are small and considered fox like, they are indipendant natured as well. And unlike a fox you dont have to have a special permet since this is an establshed breed.

[Xylex]

I thank you guys for all you feed back. A friend of mine ironically got a fox for a pet herself. She has a huge yard and give the fox tons of attention. The dedication behind raising a fox is somthing I dont think im ready for as its much more difficult than a dog

Again, thank you all for you feed back...

[TamanduaGirl]

You can NOT have a fox in Washington so it's a mute point but I know lots of people with foxes who take good care of them and the foxes are happy and healthy. If the animal is happy and healthy and legal it's no one else's business. But they are a LOT more work and trouble than a dog.

For more info on foxes you really need to go to the fox section of sybil's den. It's where all the fox owners(besides fennecs) hang out
http://www.raskbb.com/sybilsden/

[TamanduaGirl]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chinchi They are bread in captivity, not in the wild, and I'm not sure they would be able to survive in the wild.

They are domesticated like skunks, but not to the point of dogs, or the Russian experiment. When they first started fur farming they had to have them in BIG natural, modern zoo like pens or drastic failure but over the years were domesticated for various colors and temperament. They are now kept in small cages on fur farms and are tame enough to do okay with it, not saying the small cages are good at all, but the domestication is a fact. You still can't expect your fox to be a dog.

I'll just mention again foxes have been kept much longer than hamsters have.

[Mygala]

Just a minor semantic point. Foxes and skunks are not domesticated. They are tamed.

Domestication comes from hundreds, if not thousands, of years in captivity in which an animal is genetically and behaviorally changed as it adapts to life with humans. Dogs and cows are examples of animals that are domesticated. There are lots of animals that are bred in captivity, but aren't changed from their wild kin. There are many zoo animals that have been breed for many generations. However, they are essentially still wild animals with the full repertoire of wild instincts. The same is true with skunks and foxes.

This is the one of the reasons people are generally not allowed to wild animals as pets. They don't behave like the domesticated animals we are used to. A fox may look like a dog, or a Serval may look like a big house cat, but they certainly don't act like their domestic cousins. Most people aren't smart enough to deal with that, and problems usually ensue.

Bob

[Chinchi]

I don't know how it works over there, but here people call animals like wild cats that are bread in 3. generation for domesticated.
The bengal cat was called domesticated after this short period of time, even though it's still a wild cat.

But domestication is also a question of how the animals are kept. You can't compare animals that are kept in zoos, to animals that are kept by private persons. The animals are raised in whole different ways.

[TamanduaGirl]

Bengals are hybrids and that's a different thing entirely.

Dictionary says tamed is a type of domestication. Dictionary lists a few types of domestication: bred for a genetic change in behavior is just one of them. Bred for a change in appearance or for some purpose for humans is one. Simply tamed is one form of domestication too.

Do you argue chickens are not domesticated? They are not bred to be genetically tame. They don't tend to follow you around or bond to you like a dog, they don't house break, they don't usually learn commands. They are usually skittish and scared and will run from you unless tamed or imprinted on you by raising from a chick. If your version of domesticated is the only version then chickens are not a domesticated species.

Domestic Foxes and skunks are tamer than their wild cousins even if you don't bottle them, not good pets though if not bottled. They don't bottle fur farm foxes and skunks but they survive the smaller cages and handling because they are domesticated for a calmer tamer temperament by breeding. They have also been bred to come in a variety of colors not seen in the wild, also a form of domestication. They don't even have the same level of instincts their wild counter parts do. Some fur farm foxes that were released from someone who bought them, adults not bottled ect, were released by a nut, all were found in a couple days, all but one found dead.

Of course they do still have fox instincts and are foxes not dogs. Dogs still do have wolf instincts but the degree of them depends on breed but they are there. Cats still have wild cat instincts. While not as bad at spraying ect people do still have those problems with domestics. If domestication equals tame at birth with no work from the humans most breeds of dog wouldn't even pass.

That is what they did with the Russian fox experiment. The foxes were tame and tail wagging even as adults with no human contact but a visit to put a bowl of food in the cage. It's that experiment that got people spreading the word that domesticated means genetically puppy dog tame, but most dogs wouldn't even pass that test.

You can't get the Russian foxes but the foxes you can get are domesticated but just not in the same way or to the same extent as the Russian foxes.

If you get a chicken and expect it to be lassie dog, you're an idiot. They are two different species. The same is true of getting a fox. But it doesn't disqualify either from being domesticated.

Check the dictionary
http://www.answers.com/domesticated&r=67
Adapted or trained to live with humans = Tamed
You could take a truly wild animal and tame it and it would be domesticated but not genetically domesticated.

Red fox(vulpes vulpes) and skunks are genetically domesticated though; bred for a domestic purpose, different colors, and some temperament difference.

[TamanduaGirl]

By the way I know people who have tame enough fennec fox moms that they do NOT bottle raise and still have kits just as tame as bottled ones. Some people have used that as a bench mark for domestication, tame enough not to need bottling. Our wallabies were never bottled either and so sweet and tame but they had tame moms and got tons of attention and handling. Moms often kicked baby out, knowing we would babysit and give her a break.

By the way how can you domesticate an animal if it doesn't need to be changed temperamentally, and physical changes like color variety doesn't count?

My anteater did come direct from the wild as an adult, needed nursed back to health. She is so tame she likes to sleep inside my shirt to be close to me. Tamandua anteaters do not need bottled and will be naturally tame if raised around people with mom. Stewie was captive born and mom raised and was a sweet guy too. So how could they ever be domesticated if domesticated only means genetically changed for temperament? The fact that it's impossible even though they are perfectly tame, learn commands ect, shows the narrow definition to be invalid or at least incomplete. The dictionary definition that includes tamed does include this scenario so is valid.

[TamanduaGirl]

one last thing. Problems do not ''usually ensue". They make the news because they are rare. Most exotics(not store type, kinda exotics) do stay in one home and are cared for well their whole life and if not are usually put into another decent situation by the first owner. Someone dropping a dog off at a shelter doesn't make news but a real exotic like a fox usually does because it's rare.

As for actual abuse domestic dogs and cats have been set on fire. I've heard of no one doing that to a tiger or domestic fox.

[Mygala]

Quote: Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl Bengals are hybrids and that's a different thing entirely. Dictionary says tamed is a type of domestication. Dictionary lists a few types of domestication: bred for a genetic change in behavior is just one of them. Bred for a change in appearance or for some purpose for humans is one. Simply tamed is one form of domestication too.

Actually, no. "Tamed" is not the same as domestication under any scientific definition I've ever heard of.

Quote: Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl Do you argue chickens are not domesticated? They are not bred to be genetically tame. They don't tend to follow you around or bond to you like a dog, they don't house break, they don't usually learn commands. They are usually skittish and scared and will run from you unless tamed or imprinted on you by raising from a chick. If your version of domesticated is the only version then chickens are not a domesticated species.

I'm not sure where you got that from my earlier post. I didn't say anything about being "tame" as part of the definition of domestication. In fact I don't think I used the word "tame" in the entire post. Tameness can be part of a learned behavior set. You can make wild animals tame, but you are not domesticating them.

Chickens (Gallus gallus) are most definitely domesticated. They have changed genetically in appearance and behavior from their progenitor, the Asian Red Junglefowl. They may even have genetic material from other fowl species. Go to the poultry section at a state fair and observe the huge differences in the breeds.

I'm not sure you've ever worked with chickens. I've had ones the followed you around "like a dog" (and I've seen dogs that ran from you like a chicken). Chickens are not unintelligent. I've trained them to perform in bird shows. Running onto stage, through an obstacle course and then off again. None of these birds were imprinted, just trained. They can be great little birds to work with.

Quote: Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl Domestic Foxes and skunks are tamer than their wild cousins even if you don't bottle them, not good pets though if not bottled. They don't bottle fur farm foxes and skunks but they survive the smaller cages and handling because they are domesticated for a calmer tamer temperament by breeding. They have also been bred to come in a variety of colors not seen in the wild, also a form of domestication. They don't even have the same level of instincts their wild counter parts do. Some fur farm foxes that were released from someone who bought them, adults not bottled ect, were released by a nut, all were found in a couple days, all but one found dead. Of course they do still have fox instincts and are foxes not dogs. Dogs still do have wolf instincts but the degree of them depends on breed but they are there. Cats still have wild cat instincts. While not as bad at spraying ect people do still have those problems with domestics. If domestication equals tame at birth with no work from the humans most breeds of dog wouldn't even pass. That is what they did with the Russian fox experiment. The foxes were tame and tail wagging even as adults with no human contact but a visit to put a bowl of food in the cage. It's that experiment that got people spreading the word that domesticated means genetically puppy dog tame, but most dogs wouldn't even pass that test.

In this experiment by Dmitri Belyaev, they were specifically bred for traits like a reduced fear of humans, or "doglike" traits. In addition to the behavioural changes, the animals were also changed in their physical appearance. Their ears became floppy, they lost most of the fluffy, fox-like tail and their skulls were significantly reduced in size. In essence, they started to look like more domestic dogs. It just confirms that domestication is the result of a process of genetic selection. What they ended up with were not the foxes that they started with. In fur farms, they are bred for their coat. Other genetic markers are pretty randomly distributed. However because inbreeding isn't a concern, you get some genes overly represented. These can be associated with behavioral issues (overly stressed animals don't breed well, so their genes die out).

Quote: Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl You can't get the Russian foxes but the foxes you can get are domesticated but just not in the same way or to the same extent as the Russian foxes. If you get a chicken and expect it to be lassie dog, you're an idiot. They are two different species. The same is true of getting a fox. But it doesn't disqualify either from being domesticated.

You don't get domesticated foxes, you get captive raised foxes. They have changed little genetically from the animals that were originally captured in the wild. Behaviorally they still have most of the instinctual behavior set. They can be tame and you'll admit they aren't dogs. But again, tameness does not equate with domestication. It just means they are habituated to captivity.

Quote: Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl Check the dictionary http://www.answers.com/domesticated&r=67 Adapted or trained to live with humans = Tamed You could take a truly wild animal and tame it and it would be domesticated but not genetically domesticated. Red fox(vulpes vulpes) and skunks are genetically domesticated though; bred for a domestic purpose, different colors, and some temperament difference.

LOL ....don't believe everything you read on the internet. Check with an evolutionary biologist for his/her definition of domestication and see if "trained to live with humans" qualifies as domesticated. I can "train" a baby Orangutan to live with humans, ...but it's not domesticated. I've seen a tame snapping turtle that let it's owner play with it's feet and head, that doesn't mean it was a domesticated snapping turtle.

Ultimately, you can call it what you will. It's your language too. However, the point I was making in my earlier post (probably not as clearly as I would like) is that from a scientific point of view, tameness, or captive bred is not the same as domestication. Some folks in the scientific community will tell you there are degrees of domestication. Captive bred and commercially bred are two of them. However, even these folks will agree that neither of those is the same as animals that have been changed behaviourally and in appearance over the course of thousands of generations to become what we call domesticated. Being tame is a learned behavior, domestication is the result of genetic changes that affect behavior as well as appearance. I can't think of any domesticated animals that look the same as their wild progenitors.

I think of it like this, you can tame an individual or a group of animals, in many ways, including training or captive breeding. However you domesticate a species through generations.

Animals that are relatively unchanged (like foxes or skunks) are not domesticated.

THEN complications arise when you start talking about hybridization with wild/captive animals (like Bengals), or feral populations of animals that we consider domestic that have gone back to the wild (like pigs in the southern US and other parts of the world).

Like all of the biological sciences, it is inexact at best, and there is always room for compromise or argument (your choice). I didn't mean to get off on this subject in this way, sorry for the thread hijack. This discussion would best be served by a thread of it's own. I won't post any more on it.

And problem DO ensue when people take in animals they are unprepared to deal with. I work at a zoo and I've volunteered at the county animal shelter. I've taken the calls of people who got those animals. In fact I have a couple of those animals in my collection at the zoo, and at home too.

Bob