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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
 
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Bumblefoot and inbreeding questions

Hi guys! I was wondering if any of you have had any experience with bumblefoot in mice. I started out with an albino male and a cinnimon female, which, according to the lady I got her from, was show quality. They had one litter of 14 babies, one and a half months later, I noticed that the mom mouse had some swelling around her leg, three other of her babies also later developed the same thing; pockets of pus on their legs and feet. I bred a brother and sister to each other that were bumblefoot free, and one mouse of their litter developed swelling in his leg. I think his leg might of been bitten when he was fighting and gotten infected, but I'm not sure. Also, how many generations should I inbreed before I have to add new blood? My current litter is from two mice of the same litter and I'm trying it again with three mice from their litter, so their litters should only be two generations inbred.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 02:41 PM
 
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Personally, I think that you SHOULDn't inbreed at all. It's a health concern. even just one generation of inbreeding can compromise a whole litter's health. Not to mention, they're no longer show quality. As to the foot thing, no clue.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 02:48 PM
 
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Why are you inbreeding at all. It can cause a lot of problems.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 03:09 PM
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Inbreeding doesn't cause a lot of problems if done randomly. It is however looked down upon.

I don't know about the bumblefoot thing because it has pretty much been proven to be caused by being exposed to bacteria.

Why are you breeding them anyway? It sounds like you're going to have a bunch of babies on your hands and that could be dangerous if you're using the same female.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 04:38 PM
 
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You have to be very careful with inbreeding, it can be a very usefull tool if used right, but it can be a very dangerous tool if done wrong. The best example is satin mice, they are fairly new to the market, so people have started inbreeding them like crazy, and they are one of the weakest varieties around. There are a couple of people actually working on outbreeding them and strenghtening the satin lines. Here are a couple of good articles about breeding methods.
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/methods.html

In what type of cage you have them? As far as I know, bumblefoot is not hereditary, but due to floor conditions. Here are a couple of articles about it, they are not about mice, but the information in them can be applied to mice as well.
http://www.guinealynx.com/pododermatitis.html
http://ratguide.com/health/integumen...dermatitis.php
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
 
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I have my females in a large cage made out of wood and chicken wire, I usally put newspaper on the bottom of the cage and bedding over that, the males are in a critter trail#3. As to the question about what I'm planning to do with the babies; I'm keeping them. When I do breed mice its only for pets, not to sell or anything, and I never breed over what I can keep. Thanks for all the advice about the inbreeding, now that I've seen some info on it, it's defenatly not a good idea to risk the health of my mice just to get some more pets. The only way for me to get new breeding stock is pet co, but arn't feeder mice really inbred too?
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-13-2006, 10:11 PM
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Inbreeding is not good.I am not for it AT ALL.Linebreeding I think is okay if you know what your doing.But inbreeding...I am strongly against it.It does weaken lines and the quality of animals in most cases.Plus you definatly should not breed sick/injured/ill mice or ones you know have disease in their lines.

Bumblefoot is caused by bacteria and dirty cages.The symptoms you mentioned don't sound like Bumblefoot,as it affects the bottoms of the feet mainly.The mice should go to the vet and FAST!They need antibiotics.

Here is abit of information,it is about BF in rats...but still tells you what it is and whatnot.





What is Bumblefoot?: Bumblefoot is medically called ulcerative pododermatitis, and is a complex problem that result from inflammation of the bottom (plantar) surface of the foot. A similar syndrome happen in other animals (especially other rodents, and rabbits) and birds. The term bumblefoot generally refers to the stage of the disease when red bumps and lumps form on the bottom of the feet.

What Causes Bumblefoot?: Typically, bumblefoot starts as a wound that becomes infected (usually with Staphylococcus aureus) from contact with soiled bedding and the cage floor. This leads to chronic inflammation and abscesses, resulting in bumps on the bottom of the feet that can become quite enlarged. Factors that predispose rats to bumblefoot may include trauma from irregular cage surfaces or roughly textured bedding materials, obesity (increased pressure on the feet), and possibly a genetic predisposition.

Signs of Bumblefoot: Bumblefoot starts out as small reddened bumps that looks a bit like calluses. These bumps can eventually become quite large and may intermittently bleed and scab over.

Treatment of Bumblefoot: At the first sign of bumblefoot, see your veterinarian. A combination of oral antibiotic treatment along wtih topical cleaning and treatment of the wounds (as directed by your vet) is usually the first course of treatment. For bumblefoot lesions that do not respond, surgical treatment may be necessary, but this has significant risks and variable success. Early detection and treatment is vital for the best results (even then, some cases may not respond well). Prevention is best.

Preventing Bumblefoot: Though the factors that lead to bumblefoot are complex, prevention of trauma or abrasions to the feet and keeping the cage and bedding meticulously clean are the cornerstones of prevention.
Cage Floors: the use of wire floored cages, including wire shelves or balconies, has been implicated as a cause of bumblefoot. Wire cage floors should be avoided, but many decent rat cages have upper levels made from wire mesh. Owners should consider covering wire balconies with a solid surface (e.g. wood, vinyl, plexiglass, plastic needlepoint canvas, Vellux blankets, towels). However, even rats kept on solid flooring can get bumblefoot, and a new theory has developed that exposure to urine pooled on solid floors (especially plastic) may also contribute to the problem. Therefore, it is important to keep all surfaces clean and dry. No matter the cage materials, frequent and thorough cage cleaning appears to be the best defense.

Bedding: roughly textured bedding materials such as wood chips may also have a contributing role. Consider softer alternatives, such as CareFresh. Remove soiled bedding as soon as possible, and change the bedding frequently. Using a litter box can help keep the bedding cleaner.

Pressure on the Feet: prevent your rats from becoming overweight by providing a healthy diet and lots of opportunity for exercise. Older rats may also walk more flat-footed to be sure to provide soft bedding and surfaces for older or weak rats.

Watch for Early Signs

Regularly check your rats' feet for abrasions, trauma, or early signs of bumblefoot. This will allow you detect and treat any wounds early, preventing the painful abscesses and bumps associated with bumblefoot. It may also alert you to potential problems in your rats' cage or bedding that may be corrected to help prevent further problems.






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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-14-2006, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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Before I started inbreeding I read an article about inbreeding that seemed to say that inbreeding was ok. This is the address http://goto.glocalnet.net/rat/gen/inbreeding.htm
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-15-2006, 01:16 AM
 
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Just because one site has *some* arguments for it does not mean it is okay. For all you know the author of that site is not reputable at all. I would have to say it's a risky and irresponsible pratice.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-15-2006, 06:48 PM
 
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I've inbred my mice before with no problems, I don't go past two generations though. If its used right its ok. Its also a matter of opinum as to whether u inbred or not. Unlike with some other creatures their aren't many side effects. I have some perfectly healthy mice who are from an inbred litter. Inbreeding can be used to get certain charcteristics and colours. Mice that are inbred can still be used for showing. It's not a perfered method of breeding though.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-15-2006, 07:28 PM
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I am not gonna go into the story again,because it is posted here somewhere else.But I had some mice from an inbred litter that were missing eyes and didn't live long at all.




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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-15-2006, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanilla_Rat
I am not gonna go into the story again,because it is posted here somewhere else.But I had some mice from an inbred litter that were missing eyes and didn't live long at all.
How many generations were they inbred?
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-16-2006, 08:14 PM
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i agree with Padfoot and Pinkie about the inbreeding part...its not all bad nor good...a common example is when recessive genes that are "hidden" while the dominant ones are being expressed hetero mice..and when the two are interbreed...the two recessive genes may come together and the recessive genes are finally expressed and this could be good or bad...

but i must say a mating pair with 13 babies and now another set of babies on the way...could be one and it could be in the high twenties! thats a lot of mice..are you prepared to hold that many in a comfortable non crowded space?

you should really take those infected mice to a vet


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-16-2006, 09:43 PM
 
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Please Stop Inbreeding, Nothing Good Can Come From It.
Deformities, Health Problems, Mental Problems, Please Stop This Type Of Breeding.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-16-2006, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaGirl
How many generations were they inbred?
Just once,because it was an accident.I did breed back then,but I knew my mice and didn't do ANY inbreeding at all on purpose.But because of that,I refuse to even TRY.




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