Can any one help me with Genetics - Paw Talk - Pet Forums
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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-11-2009, 01:08 AM Thread Starter
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Can any one help me with Genetics

HI I breed rats among aother things and hae talkd to thers that do as well and they dont understand Genetics at all. I undertand it as in if you breed 2 albinos you'll get albinos and or can have other colors depending on whats in the back ground. but mostly all or half will be Albinos. But is there an easery way my problem is I dont undertand when thy say aa to Bb and you get this and CC to dd and what not. Is their an easery way or site that can exsplain it all better to me. I can tell you from my breeding what colors their have been in the litters i have had as in this one produces with this mate theses colors. Any one got any sugestions or could help tuterme in this feild I am interested in knowing all that sience stuff. I was an A student in Bio in High school but when it came to genetics I sucked.
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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-11-2009, 06:47 PM
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You had better start by googling the Punnett Square, and I shall not comment on your lack of knowledge and the fact that you are breeding.

http://www.geocities.com/petsburgh/7.../genetics.html

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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-11-2009, 09:53 PM
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well lilspaz is being really nice.
You should NOT be breeding if you don't know about genetics. Color is one of the easiest things to get about genetics. There's dominant and recessive.
You need 2 recessive genes to get albino. Which means if 2 albinos are bread together, they will always have albino babies, 100% of the babies.
.
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It would take forever for someone like me to teach you everything you need to know about rat genetics for you to be a good breeder. I know more than you, and I know I don't know enough to breed them. It becomes more complicated with things like diseases.
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-11-2009, 11:36 PM Thread Starter
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You must have misunderstood what I was saying. I know colors as in this color breed to this one get this color. i dont understasnd the letters and the qoute: You need 2 recessive genes to get albino. ( I kow this and I have had albinos pop iup in some litters and know that it is a recive gene. BUt the quote: Which means if 2 albinos are bread together, they will always have albino babies, 100% of the babies.
Attually thats not always true you can but I have had albino parents breed and have gotten colors and 1 or 2 albinos and other friends of mine have breed albinos and or same colors and some have gotten all same color some have gotten difrent colors.It depends what in the back ground the the animal you are breeing.
I follow the breeding Guildlines of hte AFRMA. and they dont seem to have a probelem or see any problems with my rats or breeding and I also know that blazed faced rats breed to blazed faced rats can suffer from health problems but there are some that do not. The ARFMA has told me thses colros breed together make these colors. I was askign about the genetic as inthe letters how do you write them. Like what is agauti and black berkshire. As inthe coat. And aroudn here I am known as a reputable breeer so thanks for saying I shoudl not breed. this is supose ot be were we talk about helping one another out no mater what we think and talk about our pets not run some one up and cute them down and you DONT Have to know genetics to be a good breeder you jsut have to know the colors you are working with. This form is to talk about critter and ask advice what you coudl have said insted of startign stuff is say well look up these sites or google this and see if it helps and then say what ever you want under your breath. My breeding has never made any of my rats sick or unhealthy in any way and I have had not problems becuase I know what I am doing I studying color as in looking at a picture of this color adn another adn what teh offspring ot come is give or take what is in there back ground. I have bred to dark colors befer and gotten all light. Same with Albino. BUt hey what ever dont offer helpful info, and do guid me the right direction then, kinda seems stupid to diss someone and not help them then when have a big huge probelm they are gonan come back and say I ask for advice and I got told to blow it out my a** and I need help then what are you gonna do laugh them and call them stupid and what not becuase they sipmply asked for help and preach to them and leture them that they are bad. Well the world would be less full of bad things if others by the grace of God would help one another insted of turnt there backs or there own kind. You call your self a rat person and to tell you the truth you act more like a mouse who would rather kill the weakest link then a loyal like a rat to another and help them the best way they can.
But hey thanks for the help and info I think it was one of you that called me a back yard breeder before um starnge I dont have back yard I only have a frot yard.
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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 02:43 PM
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there are 2 kinds of albino rats. True albinos will have 100% albino babies if you breed 2 true albinos together.
Some rats are white with pink eyes, but not an albino they are capped or hooded but so diluted you can't tell the color.
http://www.afrma.org/pewrats.htm since you follow their guides... you should know.
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I don't get why you're getting so aggravated. If you're breeding rats, you should understand how genes are represented. It's like being a mathematician and not know how to write fractions. You're working with genetics to get specific colors, but mainly you're working to keep healthy rats. Great that your rats are all healthy... but if you sell them, do you get all of their health bill back from owners until they die and know they aren't dying of a genetic disease?
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Agouti is the original color of a rat, it's not a pure color. You can search for that information anywhere.
http://www.afrma.org/agoutirat.htm
An allele, is the form of one gene. For eyes you would have for example the brown allele B for brown eyes, and the blue allele b for blue eyes. Each gene has usually 2 alleles within a rats genetic pool, one is recessive and one is dominant. there can be a looot of alleles for a gene that exist, silver color, brown, black, orange, etc...
for agoutis like it clearly states on the website the rat has Aa alleles.
A is for agouti and a for non agouti. A capital letter is a dominant gene, and a small letter is recessive.
so....
Aa = agouti
AA=agouti
aA=agouti
aa=non-agouti

you can have different color agoutis, agouti is three colors on the hair. If you look at one single hair of the rat, there will be grey at the base, brown in the middle and a black tip. A black rat has just all black hair from root to tip.
I can get that information in a split second on the internet, I do not understand why you would start to breed before getting the answers to your questions which are readily available on the website you say you follow.

Last edited by Dustette; 09-12-2009 at 02:51 PM.
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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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let s see not go math never was as in fractions and all that. I can follow or understand it but they have no problem telling me telling me what is what as in coAa = agouti
AA=agouti
aA=agouti
aa=non-agouti
But this above is what I was talking about as in how to write it. Basicly All i can undertsnd and have form it is if you breed all balck mice and get all black then to a nother color as still all black or dark then the gene is dominet for dark like my Female G pig her mom was black and her dad is tri but all the babies are black in every litter and silky, she was also breed ot another male and still all came out black. I undertand when some one tells me like that but when it comes to math and all I suck at it. also what we studyed in our school is the same thing my father and brother did its sad when I got a book with my aunts name in it and another with my brothers name in it. I know that Humen and animal genetics are diffrent yet the same.like we have 23 cromizones but i think i was told a rat has 22 or the same. And getting in to breeding with out nowing the genitic coade is NOT something required but it can help. As long as you know colors are when you breed you keep trace of sex and colors and doing line breeding and inbreeding can help you determein what is what in dominets and hiden trates of colors health problems and all. So I understand a basicness of it but not all of it. and I do get affencive when told I shoudl not breed and that is the same thing as calling me bad. My mother and I breed labs abd cocker spaniels and soon now English Spriners and she deffinetly dont know Genetics and we have had show champion labs and cockers. granted we were not breeding for show but for healthy pets but still even our vet did not diss us or say we need ot understand genetics. I have talked ot other breeders aroudn her that dont know genetics and they at lest know which line or rat has a this dominet color gene and or helth probelms and so forth.
I get confussed when it comes to all the letters and stuff I was asking simply if there was an earier way to understadn it and remeber it like AA Is Always Agouti or Aa Agaout not always meanign to me rececive. I ment somthing like that.
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look up theratpack on .webs.com and check out my site and tell me if you think anthing is worng. or go to my rat phoots I haveon my profiel here and check them out. Not all is posted yet.
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 07:25 PM
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it's not really math, and you don't need to breed to figure out what gene is dominant if that's what you're doing. There's websites that will tell you what is dominant.
Aa writing is just symbols to make it easier to write fast.

your vet won't say anything as anybody can breed, you don't need a license. It's your choice.

For rats you just want to avoid breeding diseases that are genetic like some cancers, tumors, cataracts, maloclusion, megacolon... (i don't know which ones are genetic, but you want to avoid that).
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Chromosomes are little sticks basically that aare welded together at the center and look like an X. one of the sticks comes from the mother basically, and the other from the father.
so, if the mother has a A and a in her sticks, and the father has also A and a, you can tell what combinations of rittens is possible.
you can get AA babies, Aa babies or aa babies. So you can get agouti and non agouti.
You could easily take a class in your area at a university or with a private tutor that will explain to you. Anybody who has done a genetics class can explain it to you.
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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thank you thats what was confussing me. The only one I know of that I was told abot geneticly not to breed to gether are the blazed faced rats. They have been found to have megcolen the rats that have blazes as in if 2 blazed or 2 wadged are breed together they can have probelms liek mega but if one with out a blaze even if blazes run in the line as in have had soem pop up in litters then something to do with the parent with out the blaze and its gene I supose to cause it not to have a blaze can breed you can take one with a spot on its head or a capped but not blzae to blaze well you can but not recomended. I have only done one pare but perfure to take a blaze faced rat with a not blazed face I dont know about wedge face to blaze but somethign to do with blaze to bkaze and wedge to wedge. I seen it one Eagle Eye Rattery but some dont have the probelm I think it may have been a line that some how had the probelm and they were blazed and or wedge faced and some how kept breeding adn were spred out but I have seen no problems in my blazed or wedge faced rats becuase the rats them self can have it not jsut their off spring. I have bred only 1 pare but that was before I new about it and no one told me but none of the babies turned ot to have any probelms And i do not plan on breeding blaze to blaze or wedge to wedge but if i do do it will have ot be a line that I know and have not had any probelms with.
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A lot of new reshure has been done and still they are coming uip with stuff a alot of breeders are finding out that they have to retrace theri lines or redue them and soe start over again becuase of new things poping up everyday that was fine yesterday but today its something new. Also I have noticed and been told that older males that have lumps can pass it on as if they have develpoed one over time with age and are breed, i'm not sure how ture that is I guess it woudl have to depend on the tumrom or lump what it was. Nut none of my old males have any lumps or tumors. But thank you again that is what I wanted to know are in genetics, I have a friend that study humen phycologey and dont know if that covers genetic and she gave me some rats long while back becuase she moved and coudl not have them were she moved to so I may ask her is she knows.
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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:55 AM
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WOW...I am going to be blunt and say,you definatly should not be breeding.At least put it on hold until you further your research.There is ALOT more to breeding then throwing a male and female together!

A reputable breeder knows all about genetics and the things that can be passed through genes.A reputable breeder already knows these things and does not need to ask!

In your intro thread you mentioned you bred pet store rats...that is a no-no.Pet store rats are sick in most cases or could be carrying faulty genes.If you do not know the history or the background of the rat,it should not be bred!

You ARE a backyard breeder (BYB).Having a backyard has nothing to do with that by the way...BYB's are simply people who breed animals because they can.They either know nothing or very little about the animals they are breeding.They breed for profit mainly.




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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Excsue me I'm not a back yard breeder so you can say what you want. the AFRMA and the reading and new york city rat meet up people have no problem with what I do. I dont just breed pet shop rat and never menched it that in my intro were did you ge that from? I do have some that came form there and were checked before I breed and I have on my website rats for sale that have there line which had parents and grandparents listed. I am starting from scratch thank you. and I know about all the critters I breed and have studyed them it dont say anywere on the internet or on other sites that you have to know a lick of genetics to breed you can just get them tested before you breed. and I dont breed to make a proffit if I did I would not be working odd jobs to make ends meet and making shure my critters are feed and cared for. I dont breed for food I breed for PET/SHOW ONLY. and if breed for money and was a back yeard breder then I would have sold or gotten ride of the rats I had 3 months almost 4 months ago and not still have them listed for sale. I also tell others that buy them that parents or grandparents back gorund is unknown to please keep me up dated on them and let me know if they fall ill or have any problems so I can keep track of it in my data basce. I also do rescues for the SPCA and what ever proffit I get so much goes to them so much to my critters and so much to the childrens hospitol and sales have been slow lattly becuase this is a small town and a lot of back to school time. Also there is nothing worng with breeding pet shop pets, you just have to breed for a long time to make shure of no problems which includes line breeding and inbreeding to either bring out or corect the probelm I have studyed on that. And 2 I already have some one healping me with genetics becuase they have read your rude coments rwards me and they when started to breed didnt know a thing. and have decited ot help me becuase when they asked for help they got kicked like you are doing. Pet shop pets started the dam lines and it seems that everytime a new breeder comes along weather they have nice quality pets or not we new bies get kicked in the theeth unless they are friends in your group and DONT call me a back yeard breeder again unless you knwo all the details which you do not. ally ou need ot know is symtoms and signs of problems and regualer get your pets checked. NO ONE ON THE STARE OF PENNSYLVANIA has a probelm with me and pet sops have begged me to sell to them and I have turned them down becuase they are willign to pay he price I set and if I was a back yard breeder I would hav jumped at the money but I would rather be dirt *** poor then rich and not know were all the babies go that are from my babies. look up theratpack (all together) .webs.com and see for your self and on the sales page has there pedigree start. I'm really tired of gettign craped on here and I am on other groups an they have never treated me like this. I fyou think its so bad stop me do something about it. I know that certin genetic can cause probelms but if there not aparent in the parent you have to breed certin ways to see if they are and if it can be corected corect it if not dont breed that line. Also some of my pets have come from peopel who breed and then didnt want them or they got a female that was prego liek I recently got to mice a black and tan and a albino that were ready to pop and they were in the feeder bins and I saved them when there babies are grown and bigger the moms will be checked before they are breed if I decide to breed them.
things in PA are difrent and we dont have the probelms here that most other rat breeders in other states or countrys have. I know gentics enough to a point I wanted the codes and and easy way to remeber them and how to grasp them better them me looking them up all the time. like I have 2 albinos I plan to breed together some time tosee what is in the fathers back ground as in color and what not is in his back ground or see if they will give me all albinos or if they can give other colors. call me what you want but aroudn here I am a reputable breeder so say what you want i have gotten my answer and my help and the next time one of you ask a question I'm ganna basicly call you stupid like you have me. I hope if you breed or have a litter that all comes out ok becuase I only wish to God to show you the same hospatality and respect you showed twards me. So if rescuing critter (which I do and Foster) but if rescueing some and f\giving them a life know they have a show caot or one that can be worked with and seeing them for something that there owners did not and trying to breed for the health and better of the critters we love is a crim and thats what a back yard breeder is then we all are even you becuase I breed for the same goals not to make money but to give a gift of love and I dont care what any one say Love is a merical and things an be healed a treated with love and love is the greatest thing in the world and God greates gift was his son out of love and thats not my words but the lords. I have help with him in all that I do.
Besides what money is there to be made with pocket pets any way unless you mass produce but I dont do that each one is hand tamed and socilized and all that is marerial possesion you can take with you when you go its what you leave behind and I hold edgucations with my critters to help edgucate others on how to properly care for them and I hope liek all other repubutal breeders like I can leave behind a better rat healther longer lived rat then when we started with. I have had enough with this you answer my question and one of you told me to blow off and the other thanks you answered what I needed to know that was confusing me know I can get it better thanks. I am done with this conversation and I got my answer I wish ot not discuse it any more.
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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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PS As far as I am concernd ones who slam others and bash them when they jsut need a little extra help or did not know by others it is the others who are back yard breaders and are bad adn proably dont know anything or if they do they are so hung on them selves thinking they are right everyone elas is worng and they are the ones to suffer.
So complain if you want but all its doing is telling me by calling me names that you are the one that has the probelm with every name calling and bashing it seems you are either jelouse of my stock or you hate any new breeders. I am not doign anyhitng worng And I have delt with your kind before either you dont have pets but clamb you do or you are a byb and dont want others to know or you simply hung up on your self and think your the best and know it all. but what ever think what you want. God belss and have a nice day.
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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 06:11 PM
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Overreacting much? Also you are getting awful defensive...
Also I cannot read what you are saying...maybe you should put it in paragraphs.




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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 06:17 PM
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Okay...so basically I managed to read what you are saying.
Instead of attacking us,the people who are helping you...whynot take our advice? I didn't attack you.I said pet store rats should not breed.
It is true...ask ANY reputable person.

I am aware that new breeders have to start somewhere...but it is called seeking out reputable breeders and having them be your mentor.

If you doing such a great thing,you wouldn't become so defensive.People who get so defensive as you are doing are often guilty.Also BTW I didn't say you were in it for profit...I said MOST BYB's are in it for profit.

So before you act all crazy,maybe you should think what you are saying.Maybe you should look back at your posts and see where I may of gotten my view of what you are doing.Because at the end of the day,were only concerned about the animals.So if you are not doing anything wrong,then cool down and stop acting defensive...otherwise people get the wrong idea!




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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 08:12 PM
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Maybe I can a totally non-biased opinion? I neither own rats nor have ever bred animals..

Ok, what I have gathered -keeping in mind your grammar is very difficult to read Diamond- I hear your question. I even understand it. Simple enough, you wanted some help on how to read the color variations through the codes laid out online?? Im sure these are all online and I also beleive Dustette exaplianed it quite well.
Maybe it is that you should stop, maybe enjoy the pets you have while researching proper breeding techniques and terms. Learn from the pets the body languages, diets, habits and such to see if the traits are desirable enough to breed through into other generations.
Breeding can be quite difficult to acheive whatever results you are gaining for. Im no expert here but I sense from your hasty and messy replies that you actually only have a male and female rat and want to get some babies of certiain colors??
Yes, you may have rescued or adopted-Im not sure because I admit I didnt even read all your replies due to the lack of coherence, grammar and lay out in the form of paragraphs, but further research is certainly needed on your part. Animals are not breeding utensils, you happened upon a very in depth forum where all the people here are very passionate about their pets and especially in the rat club here. These people are only trying to lay out their concerns which may not apply to your specific question but relate primarily to things you may be doing or not doing correctly. A breeder as any artist of their passion will admit there is always room for critical improvement from somebody with experience. Obviously evreybody needs to start somewhere and the people here are only trying to help. No body attacked you, dear. Please re-read the intonations posted and maybe accept the help and advice offered before running off the high horse of immediate debate.
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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe it is that you should stop, maybe enjoy the pets you have while researching proper breeding techniques and terms. Learn from the pets the body languages, diets, habits and such to see if the traits are desirable enough to breed through into other generations.

Basicly that qoute is really really making me angery you baicly saying I dont care for them. I'm not going say it again look up my site theratpack.webs.com with the http in the front I cant post it yet becuase I dont have enough post but there you will see each rat has his or her own page or share with offspring or syblings and each on I decrib them and there are lots of pictures before you say I should just watch them. These are my kids and I dont not have just one I have all together 59 rats not just 2 some are breeders, some are not able to becuase they are older some are to young and that is not counting the ones that are for sale to PET only homes. And if any of the ones that can breed never get a chance then thats fine beuase I have time to imporve my lines and work on them they are family firist and formost. I work on all diffrnet coats mainly working on the siaemes to get the points back to were they should be the rex coats and trying for himies of show standareds. that is what I am working on now and of cours Dwarfs. Granted there are other coats and colors I do but right now this is my main focuse.
I get offended when I here any one say something about my children and call it crazy but they are, would you not. And yes Dustette did exsplan it well and I have a freind that is helping me so I got my answer, and help. I and just to let you know I'm now breeding or have breed my 2 double rexes and me rex and the one double rex together to get my d- rexes and there coats and to help the curle in the rex coats. I have noting to hide and I am defending my self becuase it seems to me you are all calling me stupid and making it sound like I am putting my animals threw abuse. why should I not woudl you not if you thought some one was stating you were a byb and you have a reputtion to uphold. also there are no breeders here close and the ones that are are not willing to mentore becuase they want to be the best aroudn and some will not sell becuase they are afried they will be used for food or to make food and there are thouse around here that will pay any amount for food and no matter how many times I and others try to buy from breeders and show we are not (meanig me and others) that we are not using htem for food but they dont want to have there lines breed and make you sign a contract that says you can breed them or they have them fixed before breeding. I know about passig things threw genes and all that I was just confussed on the aa and Bb and what they mean and an easer way to remeber it all and now I got it. and yes I would become deffence if I was to think some one is belittleing me and cuting me down. by saying stop breeding and listen to my rats. for the love of God I am known as the Rat lady around here or the female Willard. just go look up my site and see for your self. theratpack.webs.com and look at my proffile on here and all my pictures of my rats and how I decribel them. Also sorry about my spelling I'm not that great of a speller but that dont make me a bad person and 2 I always screw up when typeing becuase I have always been that way. I thank you for the info and I have help now so thank you. Now can any one say anything posotive about anything I do?
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PS I'll try to recheck my spelling and fox it the best way I can before I send it.
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