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post #1 of 3 (permalink) Old 09-27-2009, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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rat color

Ok my question is simple and also a couple of breeding friends wants to know. I have Siamese and have breed them and know breeding 2 together you get himmies and siamese and breeding a pew to a siamese get himmies, but we are working on the show coat becuase they are poor before we try for himmes. But some are very poor and look like the hyimmes but are siamese. So my Questiion is what the diffrence if they are poor what is a good way to tell. We have been told that himmes get there points at 5 to 6 weeks old. Siamese gethers as soon as hair colores come in.
Dale Taylor from the AFRMA has only worked with siamese as in breed blacks to them not together. and has only had siamese I know what himmes and siamese look like and the AFRMA said they are siames (mine that is) but is it true himmies get their points later on?
They dont have and i cant find info on it they just state the breeding a black or balck self to a siamese helps the points in them which i know and have done. all of mine have been cream color since fur came in but some turned more of a white with the himmie spots and the others are white and have more of the dark spots. BUt they all had points when they fur came in jsut some looked more himmies, But agian i was told they were all siamese I was wondering about the himmie and before I breed for one or get one I want to know all there is to know. As is the proper info not the wrong info. So have any of you breed or worked with them know?
Thanks
PA Yes i breed but untill recently have been told that some of mine look himmy which i was told by the AFRMA they were poor siamese but had potenchel to be breed to help the points, I have asked them the diffrence but have not heard a reply yet as to which is true do they get there points later for himmies?
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post #2 of 3 (permalink) Old 10-05-2009, 12:03 PM
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You can only go by phenotype unless you know without a doubt the genotype of your rats. If your rats come from unknown backgrounds, you have no way of knowing their true genotype. Even from known backgrounds it can sometimes be tricky unless they have consisently been "color bred" for a number of generations and given consistent colors that clearly meet one of the standards.

Genetically:
Siamese = ch/ch
Himalayan = ch/c
Albino (aka PEW) = c/c

Siamese x Siamese = all Siamese
Siamese x Himalayan = Siamese and Himalayan
Siamese x Albino = all Himalayan
Himalayan x Himalayan = Siamese, Himalayan, Albino
Himalayan x Albino = Himalayan and Albino
Albino x Albino = all Albino

By phenotype:
A good Siamese will have rich, dark points and good shading.
A good Himalayan will have rich, dark points, but no shading.
A good PEW is going to be a clean clear white all over.

A light Siamese can resemble a Himalayan. A dark Himalayan can resemble a light Siamese. This is why you can't truly know what you have genetically if you don't know the backgrounds, and why you need consistent results before you can say with little doubt what your animals are genetically. Siamese bred to Siamese should consistently produce Siamese, and if selected correctly will produce better Siamese over time. If your "Siamese" is bred to "Siamese" and you consistently get mixed results, you are possibly breeding genetic Siamese and Himalayans together.

A GOOD Siamese is going to be dark as a baby. You may not necessarily see points, per say, but you will see good shading that becomes darker where the points should be. The points on a Siamese are going to become most apparent after 6 weeks of age when the baby fur is shed and the adult fur comes in. A Himalayan is going to start out looking white(ish). The points will start coming in at about 6 weeks when the baby fur sheds and the adult fur comes in. However, a very light Siamese can resemble a dark Himalayan, even as a baby, and vice versa. This especially true of UK stock bred for Burmese (in England breeders select for lighter, poorly shaded Siamese and darker Himalayans when breeding for Burmese with the idea that it makes the points better).
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post #3 of 3 (permalink) Old 10-05-2009, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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All of the siames I have were breed to Blacks one was a self black on was an English Irishas and one was attually a Agouti verigated which I knew when i breed what the out come would be. All my babies had points as soon as they got fur and some were dark while others lite I was told they were siames becuase the hymmies are born albino and point dont show up till 4 to 6 weeks I wanted to know if that was true. I know to get color points back breeding a good pointed siamese or a self black or as little white as posible gets better ones.
Here is what the babies looked like.


The darker ones


the lighter ones

the other colors


These are all from one litter.
the next are from another litter


They have all lighted since then but are darker becuase of it getting colder. here are some of them know

Hindu (Fantashas litter 2nd litter)

MOJO (hindus brothers being kept) becuase he has the point start on his tail.

Falcore MOJOs brother bing kept.

very dark when born lighten when older.

she is the one in the middle it goes father brother a lighter patched simeaes becuase he had rump or appalousa spoting when little then her and her sister.
hope this helps with a visisual. I just wanted ot know if it was true do hymies get there spots later on?
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