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post #31 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-12-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
Actually 10,000 is the average number I have seen quoted most places for an estimate of tigers in the USA. Out of 304 million people that doesn't seem to drastic, considering some also own more than one.


Yeah regular dogs never kill any body.



so better to ban anyone having them since people will ignore the law anyway and the individuals who did have one legaly did nothing wrong.
Yep. Most people cannot handle them properly and keep them in humane conditions. Why let most of the animals suffer so a few of them can live well? Just because we need to cater to selfish people who want to own exotics and think they can handle a tiger?

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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
For the whole world and includes body parts which is the majority of the trade. Please find me one case of a tiger cub brought into the USA for a pet legal or otherwise in any recent time period since regulation (cites) was implemented.

Why is a tiger or any exotic more worthy of being protected from abuse than a dog or any more common animal? Why are they so special that they should be banned from private ownership just to protect them?
Tigers are a poor example for you to use. Pet animals (like just about anything) are a monetary commodity to smugglers. If the risk outweighs the profit, they don't do it. You'll hardly ever see tigers (or elephants or hippos, etc) smuggled in because they are a high profile, well protected megavertebrate. Since our regulations are so poor here in the US, just about anyone with even moderate means can buy one domestically. You could probably Google ten websites in five seconds.

What's more, baby tigers are difficult to obtain from the wild, and they are worth more for their parts than they are alive. They are also pretty fragile to transport and keep until the sale. Why run the risk of real jail time and lots of publicity, for all the trouble of smuggling one in?

Smugglers know that REAL money can be had in easier ways. Reptiles fish and invertebrates are much easier to capture, keep and transport. They are also worth more on the pet market in Western countries (like the US and Europe) than they are in the range countries for food or medicine. A baby Cuban Crocodile or Poughshare Tortoise is worth as much as a baby tiger, ...and is MUCH easier to feed and maintain. What's more, the laws for most reptiles are much easier to evade than those for tigers. And perhaps more importantly, the general public doesn't care as much about endangered snakes and lizards as it does about cute, cuddly tigers.

It's also harder to tell the difference between some protected/endangered reptiles (and fish) than it is to spot a baby tiger. Asian Arowanas are worth thousands of dollars. It's not uncommon to find one or two stuck in with an otherwise legal shipment of tropical fish. It takes a sharp eye to spot one in a big shipment, especially since they may be labeled as a non-protected South American species.
And smuggling goes both ways. Our native turtle populations are being decimated for food and other products in Asia and Europe, ...including their use as pets.

I don't think tigers are more worthy. ALL animals are worth protecting, regardless of their size, whether they have fur, feathers, scales or an exoskeleton.


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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
The sanctuary that had tiger cubs in the fridge and was busted for neglect must have been calling them pets, even though it is illegal under the permitting system to say they are pets in that state. I suppose the drown primates and other atrocities that happened at PPI, was an individual pet owner and not really a primate rescue that was mismanaged.
You can find an anecdotal account of anything if you look hard enough (which you obviously have). I've seen far, FAR more bad exotic cat owners than bad rescues. The sad part is, if there weren't bad exotic owners, there wouldn't be the need for so many big cat rescues. I'm also seeing a lot more owners and rescues that are in trouble because of the economy. Some people can't afford their cats anymore, and the rescues are getting few donations. It's a bad situation and it's getting worse. More cats are being put down because there is no place for them to go when confiscated. All because the owners thought that it would be cool to own a tiger or a lion.

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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
Wonder why most zoos still choose to feed anteaters a kibble based diet that can lead to spinal lesions due to vitaminosis and many owners I know are choosing a diet designed to more closely meet their needs based on a wild diet?
That's a pretty broad statement, without much in the way of definition or proof. Are we talking about unregulated (and many times illegal) "Roadside Zoos? Are are you talking about AZA accredited zoos like San Francisco or Columbus or the National Zoo? I also like how you qualify it: "...can lead to...", as if you're knowledge exceeds that of some of the foremost exotic animal veterinarians and nutritionists in the US.
Not knowing your qualifications in animal nutrition or health, I'd go with the vets.

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post #32 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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That doesn't just erase all of the abuse/neglect that does occur.
No but a ban wont stop irresponsible people from getting exotics but will prevent responsible ones from getting them because they are the ones that follow the laws.

No law has ever prevented anything. Laws are in place so you can punish wrong doing. So what is wrong about owning an exotic that needs punishing if yyou are caring for it well?

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Your statements about zoos and sanctuaries actually undermine your argument; if supposed experts cannot care for these animals, how can we expect individual owners to do so?
Not really. When you have a zoo or other business even if non-profit you have to go through committees to make changes. These are not experts, necessarily, they are organizations. I speak with zookeepers quite a bit and those with anteaters have tried to implement changes for the better but there is to much red tape as they need feeding committee, budget people, vet and more to all agree. One got barred from waorking with them after she got caught letting them have some vinegar and it was helping them. Tamanduas do not have stomach acid and rely on the acid in the ants and termites. Vinegar in a captive diet replaces that.

In a home setting I do some research and can make changes for the better at will right now. I don't even want to get into regulations here just arguing banning. People in this thread would ban anything uncommon or big and scar. I still maintain a stallion is big and scary.

AZA is always exempt from ban laws but AZA is a private group, not government, run by humans. Even an individual could get AZA if they have the funds and meet criteria. A person did this once to keep a squirrel where it wasn't legal. But should you need to be rich to own a squirrel?

Quote:
This is the only valid point you've made so far. I wish there were a way to regulate dog and cat ownership too.
Any maybe prove your worthy before having children too maybe. But again regulations wont prevent problems, it just makes something that isn't in it's self bad, owning an animal a crime unless you jump through hoops. That may or may not be attainable.


Quote:
That's like saying we don't need speed limits because there are a lot of people who would drive responsibly without them.
No a speed limit is in place to punish something bad, driving dangerously on government roads roads. An exotic ban punishes owning that animal even if you are the best owner ever.

An exotic ban causes things like this
http://www.ajc.com/news/gwinnett/man...nt-127592.html
The government confiscated this man's well cared for turtles the government abused and neglected them and many died. The man was proven to have had them legally after all.

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post #33 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 03:27 PM
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I just want you to clarify, that for the animals sake you would rather let a few "good" people own exotics (to which the animals might not even be happy) and let a lot of others suffer to not so good owners? It should be the animals we are thinking about, right?

A lot of animals are illegal in their home country, but once brought here they are no longer protected. The few exotic shops I have been into have really had horrible living conditions. The one had turtles (which someone there said were illegal salt water turtles), and the water was so gross I could barely see them. The smell was terrible, too. The one shop in my city was shut down. Caring for exotics properly is not cheap, either.

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post #34 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mygala View Post
Yep. Most people cannot handle them properly and keep them in humane conditions. Why let most of the animals suffer so a few of them can live well? Just because we need to cater to selfish people who want to own exotics and think they can handle a tiger?
Dang my computer over heated and my response got zapped. I would call it a spiritual need. People have a spiritual connection to animals and some have a connection to other than dogs and cats.

Again the reason is the constitution. We are innocent until proven guilty. Laws punish bad things they do not prevent bad things. What is bad about owning an animal if you are caring for it well that it needs to be illegal and punishable? Speed limits are in place to punish those who break the limit because driving over the limit has been deemed dangerous and they are government roads. Most people speed and repeat offenders can have their divers license suspended or revoked but they do not make it illegal to drive just because most people drive to fast.

People want animals banned to prevent abuse of them but abuse and neglect is already illegal. The problem is the lack of enforcement. A person trying to go the limit does not mean you get out of a speeding ticket even if you prove your speedometer was off. In fact you could get an extra charge for not having working equipment is some cases. By the same merit "trying" to gibe shelter or food and still leaving an animal in a neglected state is still punishable as neglect. Just as ignorance of the law is no excuse neither is ignorance on how to follow the law(care for the animal to prevent neglect). Being to lazy to do their jobs and not wanting to prosecute is no reason to punish/ban all owners for those that do wrong.

Quote:
Tigers are a poor example for you to use. Pet animals (like just about anything) are a monetary commodity to smugglers. If the risk outweighs the profit, they don't do it. You'll hardly ever see tigers (or elephants or hippos, etc) smuggled in because they are a high profile, well protected megavertebrate. Since our regulations are so poor here in the US, just about anyone with even moderate means can buy one domestically. You could probably Google ten websites in five seconds.
Then you agree with me :p I was responding to someone who said tigers, lions bears ect in the USA do mostly come from smugglers who kill their parents, read back. It's much easier to buy a legal animal that was bred in the states or in some much rare cases with smaller things imported legally, than smuggle in a wild animal with unknown background and health. Black market animal as pets is not a USA problem on any signifigant scale. Most cases are rare and individual idiots trying to bring a pet home from vacation.


[/quote]A baby Cuban Crocodile or Poughshare Tortoise is worth as much as a baby tiger, ...and is MUCH easier to feed and maintain. What's more, the laws for most reptiles are much easier to evade than those for tigers. And perhaps more importantly, the general public doesn't care as much about endangered snakes and lizards as it does about cute, cuddly tigers.[/quote]

True you can't import endangered animals as pets legally but if any are here you could buy one in your own state and legally breed them. Easy to keep generally means easy to breed as well. Also there are case like with some herp and bird species where they have gone extinct in the wild but are in good even large numbers in captivity. As to the species reported maybe a few could be smuggled in and you have reported cases as proof, I don't know. It does point to it being a spiritual connection however. Why would someone trying to show off go to the trouble when most don't even know the difference between crocs and aligators much less different species of crocs?

Quote:
And smuggling goes both ways. Our native turtle populations are being decimated for food and other products in Asia and Europe, ...including their use as pets.
Products are easier to smuggle than live animals but if farming of species is allowed they would have a ready supply to meet the demand.

Quote:
I don't think tigers are more worthy. ALL animals are worth protecting, regardless of their size, whether they have fur, feathers, scales or an exoskeleton.
Quote:
But most are saying uncommon or scary exotics need banned to protect them but not the others or species they choose to keep.That's a pretty broad statement, without much in the way of definition or proof. Are we talking about unregulated (and many times illegal) "Roadside Zoos? Are are you talking about AZA accredited zoos like San Francisco or Columbus or the National Zoo? I also like how you qualify it: "...can lead to...", as if you're knowledge exceeds that of some of the foremost exotic animal veterinarians and nutritionists in the US.
Not knowing your qualifications in animal nutrition or health, I'd go with the vets.
Most zoos feed a mix of leaf eater biscuits and cat food or insectivore fare. These food are high in Vit A and Calcium both implicated in spinal lesions in anteaters in more than one scientific paper. Plus they need very little retinol(vit a) according to a study on the analysis of their stomach contents in the wild. On top of that the wild diet is high in Vit E which inhibits absorption of retinol.

Nutrition of the Tamandua: I. Nutrient
Composition of Termites (Nasutitermes
spp.) and Stomach Contents From Wild
Tamanduas (Tamandua tetradactyla)
Sergio E. Oyarzun, Graham J. Crawshaw, and Eduardo V. Valdes

Giant Anteater (Myrmecophaga tridactyla)(basicly the same info as one that does include tamandus but I can't find it to quote)
Health Care Survey
Scott Morford1 and Mary Ann Meyers2
Santa Barbara Zoological Gardens, 500 Ninos Drive, Santa Barbara, California 93103, USA.

Zoo Feeding Programs: Nutritional Impacts for Optimal Health
Ellen S. Dierenfeld, PhD
St. Louis Zoo

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post #35 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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I just want you to clarify, that for the animals sake you would rather let a few "good" people own exotics (to which the animals might not even be happy) and let a lot of others suffer to not so good owners? It should be the animals we are thinking about, right?

A lot of animals are illegal in their home country, but once brought here they are no longer protected. The few exotic shops I have been into have really had horrible living conditions. The one had turtles (which someone there said were illegal salt water turtles), and the water was so gross I could barely see them. The smell was terrible, too. The one shop in my city was shut down. Caring for exotics properly is not cheap, either.
I'm for enforcement of the laws against abuse and neglect and where needed stronger laws. Not banning the animals being kept, which as others even stated will just send owners underground as people will do it anyway only now they can't take it to the vet or risk getting it taken away and possibly killed.

If you believe this then I assume you will support a ban on rabbits since most of them are neglected once Easter is over, right?

And I assume then that you turned that store in for having illegal animals and neglecting them? Please share how the authorities handled this?

You realize Conures are illegal in some states? Those states think no one should own one as most owners are either neglectful or set them free. So why do you own one and contribute to a trade that allows owners to abuse the animals? You should want conures banned everywhere if you believe what you just said.

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post #36 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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A lot of animals are illegal in their home country, but once brought here they are no longer protected.
Also not really true as if they are taken illegally from their country they will have to be smuggled in, as there is need of paper work to import, and then the whole animal is illegal for the owner.

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post #37 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
I'm for enforcement of the laws against abuse and neglect and where needed stronger laws. Not banning the animals being kept, which as others even stated will just send owners underground as people will do it anyway only now they can't take it to the vet or risk getting it taken away and possibly killed.

If you believe this then I assume you will support a ban on rabbits since most of them are neglected once Easter is over, right?

And I assume then that you turned that store in for having illegal animals and neglecting them? Please share how the authorities handled this?

You realize Conures are illegal in some states? Those states think no one should own one as most owners are either neglectful or set them free. So why do you own one and contribute to a trade that allows owners to abuse the animals? You should want conures banned everywhere if you believe what you just said.
To be honest, I don't really feel animals should be kept... and since I've been working in pet store to pay for college, I reeeeallllyyy have confirmed that belief. For everyone good pet owner I deal with... there are probably 5 bad. All of the people who want reptiles, piranhas and those 'cool' animals. Btw, I didn't buy my rabbit. The only thing I have purchased recently was a rat, but that is because I acquired a rat which was given to me with a hide box and being fed guinea pig food. Well, I was given two, but the one was euthanized because it has a tumor so big it couldn't walk. Since this rat had been around another rat it's entire life... I felt it was only fair to find her a friend, but soon after I acquired another rat that was living in a dresser. I'm sorry that I do have a heart, and have to take in animals that should never have been born to begin with. If I didn't have them, I would know that they never had to suffer, and that would make me happy. And as I said, the shop was shut down.

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post #38 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 04:29 PM
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Also not really true as if they are taken illegally from their country they will have to be smuggled in, as there is need of paper work to import, and then the whole animal is illegal for the owner.
Do you honestly believe all of the wild caught animals are legal to take from their own country?

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post #39 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
I'm for enforcement of the laws against abuse and neglect and where needed stronger laws. Not banning the animals being kept, which as others even stated will just send owners underground as people will do it anyway only now they can't take it to the vet or risk getting it taken away and possibly killed.

If you believe this then I assume you will support a ban on rabbits since most of them are neglected once Easter is over, right?
To be honest with you? Pretty much. I don't really feel like my desire to keep and enjoy rabbits justifies how many rabbits actually suffer from extremely poor care and neglect. It's not a popular opinion, but opinions which require a group of people to do something unpleasant for the benefit of all rarely are.

Laws and regulations do typically put a penalty on those who obey them. Look at car insurance. In our state, everyone is required to have car insurance. You also have to have insurance for uninsured motorists. Why? Because some people break the law.

You must have a license to drive a car, which costs time and money to get. You could easily break the law, and would in all likelihood rarely be caught, but the onus of the law-abiding citizen is to stand in line, renew licenses, take tests, etc.

Yet, nobody seems to think it's a great idea to not have car insurance or licenses.

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post #40 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 05:37 PM
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part of exotic is any animal that originated elsewhere from your area.

So most common animals fall into this as well, cats that are now domesticated are not from the united states, along with cows, horses, most dogs and so forth.

Nearly all common pet birds fall into exotic animals. Ferrets, chinchillas, fancy rats, fancy mice, hamsters and so on.

stricter laws on care and stronger enforcement of laws needs and has been increasing over the last few years. You can now go to jail if you abuse an animal in many states, a few years ago you couldn't. Things are changing for the better. So are expectations.

In iowa their are still very few laws against abuse. You can legally kill any animal on your property if you want. You can buy a dog to kill if you want to. You won't serve any time for doing so. You can shoot a raccoon, dog, cat or anything else that comes into your yard if you so choose. I hope this will change.

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post #41 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 05:38 PM
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http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/s...17B_1_717E.htm

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post #42 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 08:55 PM
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I don't even know where to begin. You aren't even taking the real meaning of our points; you are warping them into arguments to which you have a rebuttal.

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post #43 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:04 PM
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I don't even know where to begin. You aren't even taking the real meaning of our points; you are warping them into arguments to which you have a rebuttal.
me?

I am taking the real meaning of your points.

Most of us on here have animals that fall into the exotic category. Do you feel that the animals you keep should be taken away because some don't give them proper care but you do?

Or Is their a line that is different from that?

I don't think Lions, tigers, bears, alligators giraffe, wildabeast, cheetahs or many other large dangerous wild animals should be kept as pets, I think people can twist them selves into thinking they can care for them but you can't very well. Large meat eating animals i don't think make good pets. I don't think huge snakes make good pets either some disagree there.

I don't think monkeys or apes make good pets. They are family oriented, and their fore you have to have many and mess up a family and that is just over your head in most cases.

But i am against bans of all exotic animals.

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post #44 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:51 PM
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Again the reason is the constitution. We are innocent until proven guilty.
Actually, it isn't. If you committed a crime, you are guilty. If you didn't you are innocent. Under the precedent of English law, our justice system PRESUMES you are innocent. It doesn't say that, in so many words, in the Constitution. You can infer if from some of the protections we are afforded, but it is not stated specifically.

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Laws punish bad things they do not prevent bad things.
Maybe your limited understanding of the law is part of the problem you have with it.
Laws actually do many things. I think most legislators would agree that the purpose behind much criminal and civil law is to stop or limit people from doing behaviors that are considered detrimental to some aspect of society. In an old text I was told that general law was to "preserve freedom and moral agency". In a way, to protect "the people" from "the people".

For example, anti-smoking laws aren't written to punish smokers, they are there to regulate smoking and protect non-smokers in certain areas (like inside restaurants). However, if a smoker chooses to smoke in a non-smoking area, they could be punished.

Constitutional law on the other hand, was written more to limit the powers of the government, in order to guarantee the freedoms of the people. Remember what was going on at the time and you can get a better idea of the intent of the framers of the Constitution. There are very few "punishments" in my copy of the Constitution.


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Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
What is bad about owning an animal if you are caring for it well that it needs to be illegal and punishable? Speed limits are in place to punish those who break the limit because driving over the limit has been deemed dangerous and they are government roads. Most people speed and repeat offenders can have their divers license suspended or revoked but they do not make it illegal to drive just because most people drive to fast.
Again: Punishment isn't the purpose of any law I've ever read (and I read a LOT of laws). Punishment is what happens if you break the law. Speed limits are in place to protect people from other people. The speeds vary in order to try to give people the liberty to get someplace quickly, without undue risk of killing other people (or themselves) in the process. If you choose not to obey the law, you run the risk of being punished. Tickets happen, but they are not the purpose of the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
People want animals banned to prevent abuse of them but abuse and neglect is already illegal. The problem is the lack of enforcement. A person trying to go the limit does not mean you get out of a speeding ticket even if you prove your speedometer was off. In fact you could get an extra charge for not having working equipment is some cases.
Just because your speedometer was off, doesn't mean you weren't speeding. You WERE breaking the law. ...AND you were breaking another law by having defective equipment. Ignorance of the law, or your intent are rarely pertinent. An officer, or a judge MIGHT take it into account, but that doesn't change the FACT that you were speeding, even if it was unwittingly on your part. You might just as easily say that you didn't see the School Zone sign and were unaware it was illegal to go 65mph through a school crossing. What you want, is to be exempt from the law. Not because the law is unfair, but because it is being applied to you in a way you don't like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
Black market animal as pets is not a USA problem on any signifigant scale. Most cases are rare and individual idiots trying to bring a pet home from vacation.
Again, you are wrong, way wrong. There are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of animals that die in smuggling attempts each year. I've seen parrots stuffed in spare tires (they all died), under seats and in false compartments. (Avian flu and USDA protocols means they were all euthanized) I've seen rare animals mixed in with unprotected animals, or secreted in small compartments of shipping containers. Animal smuggling is not rare, not by any means. I will say that I've never heard of someone bringing one back from vacation. I do know that there are occasional "stowaways" in people's luggage (like scorpions or spiders) that they didn't know about. If it were a protected species, they'd be potentially liable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
True you can't import endangered animals as pets legally but if any are here you could buy one in your own state and legally breed them.
It depends on the species, its level of protection, your intent, and any applicable state or federal laws. If it is protected under the Endangered Species Act, you'd have to possess a CBW (LINKY) permit to breed it. However, no blanket assumptions here, animal law is very complicated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
Easy to keep generally means easy to breed as well. Also there are case like with some herp and bird species where they have gone extinct in the wild but are in good even large numbers in captivity. As to the species reported maybe a few could be smuggled in and you have reported cases as proof, I don't know. It does point to it being a spiritual connection however. Why would someone trying to show off go to the trouble when most don't even know the difference between crocs and aligators much less different species of crocs?
Have you never heard of reptile collectors? It's like art collecting or baseball card collecting, but with animals. They want to have THE rarest animal, even if they have to bend or break laws to get it. And most anyone in this aspect of the hobby can easily tell the difference between an endangered Cuban Croc, an Alligator and a CITES I African Dwarf Crocodile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
Products are easier to smuggle than live animals but if farming of species is allowed they would have a ready supply to meet the demand.
That is a myth. Price, not availability, determines what is smuggled. There are plenty of captive breeding going on with large parrots. You can find them online and at numerous bird shows or pet stores. Availability is NOT a problem for the consumer. However, the prices on hand raised birds of some species can exceed $15k. If you REALLY want one for the status, and have no clue of what the difference in health/quality is (or don't care), you might pay as little as half to a tenth of that, ...depending on what point in the smuggling chain you encounter.


From another post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamanduaGirl View Post
When you have a zoo or other business even if non-profit you have to go through committees to make changes. These are not experts, necessarily, they are organizations. I speak with zookeepers quite a bit and those with anteaters have tried to implement changes for the better but there is to much red tape as they need feeding committee, budget people, vet and more to all agree. One got barred from waorking with them after she got caught letting them have some vinegar and it was helping them. Tamanduas do not have stomach acid and rely on the acid in the ants and termites. Vinegar in a captive diet replaces that.
Not exactly true. I worked in, and consulted for zoos for twenty years. A good, smart keeper rarely had trouble making changes for the better for animals. You DO have to consult with your superiors (Curators), as ultimately they are responsible for the animals health. Likewise you run things past the vet staff because if the health of the animal is affected, the vets want to know what has changed. The "red tape" is there to protect the animals, so some idiot doesn't get the idea that it might be good to try some type of food or medicine that might cause problems.

I've heard of adding acids to the food of some anteaters (I never took care of any in my career). From what little you said, I imagine that if the keeper you referred to would have taken the time to do the diet supplement correctly, she would have been rewarded. However, if she worked for me and changed an animals diet without consulting myself or the experts, I'd have suspended her too (at the very minimum). It's foolish and potentially dangerous to do crap like that on your own. If you do that without talking to your boss and getting their approval, what happens if the animal goes to the vet on your day off and they administer something that conflicts with your supplement? Or maybe someone else decides to add another dose of acid to the diet? Communication is key when working in a zoo. It sounds like your keeper meant well, but didn't consult anyone about it.
A professional keeper, in a good zoo spends a significant portion of every day recording the care that the animals have received and any changes the keepers noted in the animals health or behavior. That way if a keeper is off the next day, the working keepers will know how long an animal has been limping, or not eating, or coughing, etc. Your keeper needs to learn to play well with others, for the sake of the animals (if not her career).

Don't you do this at the pet store you work at? Can you just change a diet or some other aspect of an animals husbandry without consulting your boss?

Bob



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Last edited by Mygala; 09-13-2009 at 09:57 PM.
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post #45 of 63 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 09:55 PM
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When people judge and say "I think" ... how then do you choose what is okay and what isn't? I think it's easier to just so NO to everything. Unless it is a conservation project or something, animals should be left free. My birds are in a cage, when they should be flying free. My rabbit is in a cage when he should be running around free. Awhile ago after getting a chinchilla in a rescue situation that ended up in the death of the poor baby, I thought that I would consider a breeder. After thinking about it... I was like what am I thinking.... Of course in our selfish ways we want animals, but then we are just thinking about ourselves and not the animals. When I see the rabbits running around and the birds flying free... there is something beautiful about seeing their true freedom. I think that is the true problem... people wanting what they want and not thinking about the animals.

I don't want to sound like a jerk, but it really seems like you're making all the excuses for people, but not for the animals.... just think about if it were you in that situation.

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