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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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what to feed !

I was wandering what some of you would suggest some good feed for holland lops and lion head bunnies would be currently i am feeding them some pellets i get from a local distrubuter and some hay but was wandering about the stuff at walmart it has different kind of stuff in it and i want to be sure i am feeding them good i also give them a mineral round block i would appreciate any advice
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 10:37 PM
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Dont buy from Walmart! If your wal mart is anything like the ones here they only sell terrible quality pellets ( Akina used to be fed them in her old home and she was terribly obese when I took her), and mixes with colorful seeds and wierd bits and nuts which are just plain BAD for bunnies. I feed Martins and some people feed Oxbow. Both are best kind. Hay needs to be unlimited and Timothy or Meadow. Alfalfa comtains alot of fats and proteins and should only be given to babies. Mineral blocks arent necessary as long as they have unlimited good hays and a little bit of pellets and fresh veggies everyday
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 01:29 AM
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I second the suggestion of Oxbow. It's one of the best brands out there . Whatever brand you feed, though, make sure it's just plain pellets and not a mix!




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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 03:07 AM
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I feed Manna Pro - it doesn't contain corn, and it's one of the few limited options I have here.

Many suggest either Oxbow Bunny Basics, or Oxbow Benne Terre - I trust neither. Oxbow's Benne Terre contains cranberries, and much like cats, rabbits aren't capable of metabolizing the Benzoic Acid in cranberries.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...179077/?page=3

Look at the table. Where it says, "Hippuric Acid = 100%" and "Benzoyl Glucuronide = 0%" that means any Benzoic Acid they ingest, gets excreted entirely as Hippuric Acid. Research Hippuric Acid Toxicity. It's a nasty thing. If you don't believe that, read a couple pages prior to the table where it says cats lack the metabolic pathway Benzoyl Glucuronide, in order to metabolize Benzoic Acid. Then look at the table again. Cats excrete 100% Hippuric Acid when given Benzoic Acid, and they excrete 0% Benzoyl Glucuronide. Scroll up to look at the row of information for rabbits, rabbits excrete 100% Hippuric Acid, and 0% Benzoyl Glucuronide... resulting in Hippuric Acid Toxity.

Oxbow's Bunny Basics contains Menadione Bisulfite Complex, which is a successor of Menadione, a synthetic Vitamin K that's so sensitive, it will change when the light, or temperature changes in the slightest.

"Knowing that a pet food company would opt for a synthetic ingredient in contrast to a natural ingredient is bad enough, but it takes one step further on the ‘bad scale’ with Menadione Sodium Bisulfate. This ingredient can be highly toxic in high doses. Hazard information regarding menadione lists “carcinogenic effects” and states “the substance is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes. Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.” http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Menadione sodium bisulfite-9924604
More information on menadione sodium bisulfate and pets can be read at http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione."

http://www.bigcatrescue.org/pets/Men...mBisulfate.htm

"Vitamin K can be supplied to the animal from a combination of sources: vitamins K1, K2 and K3. Vitamin K1, also known as phylloquionone, is found in green leafy vegetables and vegetable oils. Vitamin K2 is produced by gut bacteria and vitamin K3 is chemically synthesized. Vitamins K1 and K2 are "active" upon absorption. However, vitamin K3 must be "alkylated" by gut bacteria or tissue enzymes to become active. This activation involves the addition of isoprenoid side chains, and in some literature this activated form is called menaquinone or designated as MK-4."

http://community.dog.com/forums/p/71119/554324.aspx

A little bit on the actual chemical itself:

http://chemicalland21.com/lifescienc...0BISULFITE.htm

No.... there are no reports of actual toxicity resulting from Menadione Bisulfite Complex...but it's one of those ingredients I feel much safer, and much more comfortable staying away from.
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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 06:29 AM
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Unfortunately, Manna Pro is alfalfa based and raises the risk of your rabbit developing kidney and bladder stones, and contains oatmeal, which is really not an ideal day to day food for a rabbit (they're not designed to digest complex carbohydrates very well like oats).

Also, with the cranberries, I don't know that you're reading the research quite correctly. Yes, hippuric acid can cause toxicity, but if a species is eliminating it entirely from their body, they're not retaining it. It's like saying that you'll end up with Vitamin C overdose from eating too much vitamin C -- it's nearly impossible because all of the extra is secreted in your urine. Vets often commonly recommend cranberry juice for rabbits which are having urinary tract infections because hippuric acid has a bacteriostatic effect and can retard the growth of the bacteria causing the infection.

In fact, the LD50 of hippuric acid is listed at 1500mg/kg. So for an average sized rabbit (8 lbs - 3.6kg), with a selection of cranberries that have the highest reported benzoic acid (.01%) your rabbit would need to eat over a pound of cranberries in a 24 hour period to have a 50/50 chance of hippuric acid toxicity, if that. Only rats have an LD50 listed, and they eliminate hippuric acid at a 5% lower rate than rabbits. I would personally believe that you would be unable to poison a rabbit with cranberries so long as they were otherwise healthy. (And if they were sick, you'd have to feed them about 50lbs of Oxbow food in a 24 hour period to reach the dreaded 1 lb of cranberries)

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Last edited by Jennicat; 01-02-2010 at 06:32 AM.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 06:49 AM
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I also feed Manna pro

I really do not have a choice in my area, and i love my bunnies but i am not paying shipping on a 50lb bag of rabbit food.....
of expensive rabbit food to boot.

I buy my hay at walmart most of the time. (timothy hay)


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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 07:02 AM
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That's entirely your choice, but I think overall it's probably a lot more expensive to surgically treat kidney and bladder stones than it is to feed a more expensive food.

We are as gods to the beasts of the fields. We order the time o' their birth and the time o' their death. Between times, we ha' a duty. - Terry Pratchett.

"Men have forgotten this truth", said the fox, "But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed. - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 12:09 PM
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Same here, rattykins. My options for rabbit food are : Manna Pro, Armada(which is manufactured here in Michigan but the calcium content is higher than Manna Pro), Kaytee Timothy Complete for Rabbits, several Kaytee products, Russell Rabbit, and other brands which contain seeds, nuts, and colored bits. Where we live, those are my choices for rabbit food.

Shipping is out of the question. The shipping to where we live in Michigan is higher than it is most places, because this is a small town and there's not many post offices. In fact I think there's just one small post office that covers the entire "city of Otisville" which really doesn't look much like a city at all, lol. My parents wind up paying a small fortune every time they send me something.

I looked up, out of fun, how much it would cost to ship one can of cat food - it was $10. And the shipping was still the same price shipping a number of cans at the same time. It's ludicrous.

People where we live are not educated on animal nutrition, so it takes quite a bit of work, and quite a bit of luck, as well, to find a good food. But I've looked everywhere - so far, my best option is Manna Pro. And I'm not willing to risk a little bit of cranberries not causing harm, because a little bit of harm, every day, 24/7, can cause a lot of harm.
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 12:28 PM
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So you're willing to risk feeding them alfalfa every single day, which is definitely linked to causing kidney and bladder stones (in addition to the oatmeal which has too many complex carbohydrates), because you don't want to risk feeding them cranberry which theoretically might cause a problem but I couldn't find a single case study of any animal dying from cranberry poisoning (because, like humans, they purge the acid in their urine -- there's no buildup). The LD50 was given from taking that acid directly and feeding it to rats.

Your trend of finding rather obscure research on minor ingredients and then using it to justify feeding a food with major ingredients which are species or age inappropriate is pretty disturbing. It's like you're trying to justify to yourself what you've already chosen to feed based on what you can afford, and just feel the need to tear Oxbow down again, by your own admission, on things there are no studies to even prove.

It really reminds me of a lady that swore to me that all types of lettuce would kill your rabbits because lettuce contains laudanum in limited amounts, and she had found some obscure research that the romans had used to eat what was called "opium lettuce" for it's high laudanum content to get high. Since romaine had this laudanum stuff, it was clearly toxic and dangerous. Even when it was pointed out that the amount of lettuce a rabbit would have to consume to even begin to feel the effects of laudanum would kill it from diarrhea alone, she refused to stop telling people about the evils of poison lettuce.

Bottom line, too much of anything is damaging to you. You can die of water intoxication drinking too much water. But cranberries are only even potentially dangerous in huge quantities, whereas alfalfa in normal quantities is heavily linked to bladder and kidney stones. Unlike your cranberry theories, kidney and bladder stones in rabbits are well documented, and most current research heavily recommends AGAINST feeding alfalfa to rabbits out of their youth.

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"Men have forgotten this truth", said the fox, "But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed. - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Last edited by Jennicat; 01-02-2010 at 12:31 PM.
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 12:48 PM
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I use Oxbow for Smudge, and he really loves it. Ive used Manna Pro before, but I dont anymore because it isnt timothy based.
I think that the Kaytee Timothy Complete is actually a pretty good pellet, and the percentages of protein ect. are the same as Oxbow. So if you cant pay for Oxbow pellets, or dont have them available, I would go for the Kaytee one.


I always buy hay by the bale, because the bags the pet stores sell would last me about 2 days!


And Cappuchino, make sure you are feeding lots of veggies too! About 1/2-1 cup per 2 lbs of body weight, if Im remembering right. (Correct me if Im wrong!)



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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 12:50 PM
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*rolls her eyes* What's disturbing, Jennicat, is when people oppose your thought process, you're the one who has an issue with it - that's what's disturbing. End of discussion, ain't getting into it.
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlickeringHope View Post
*rolls her eyes* What's disturbing, Jennicat, is when people oppose your thought process, you're the one who has an issue with it - that's what's disturbing. End of discussion, ain't getting into it.
I'd really encourage you to pick up the Textbook of Rabbit Medicine, it's got great sections on diet and amazing sections on kidney and bladder stones and how hypercalcemia (typically due to alfalfa based diets) contributes heavily to this. It's a really great read, and I've found the information in it invaluable.

Rabbits are weird little critters -- all of their excess calcium is routed out through their kidneys which is why they're so prone to stones in the urinary tract, especially with high calcium diets.

We are as gods to the beasts of the fields. We order the time o' their birth and the time o' their death. Between times, we ha' a duty. - Terry Pratchett.

"Men have forgotten this truth", said the fox, "But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed. - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 02:07 PM
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I don't know anything about rabbits,but I do know not to feed foods with colored bits or Wal-Mart food.

And I also do not think there needs to be an argument to someone's question.Not everyone is gonna agree with eachother and just because one person feeds something,does not mean it will work for someone else's pet.I am tired of the arguments in forums (not only here) about food.

I suggest people do their own research on foods and determine what is the best for their pet.




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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 02:48 PM
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My pellets are usually either by KAYTEE or Oxbow, which having been said, Oxbow is really good. And you also need hay 24/7. If they're under 6 (Or is it 7?) Months, they need alfalfa pellets. Fyi, it's 1/4 cup for every 5lbs.

Also remember veggies, it didn't seem you mentioned if you were giving them or not. Depending on the breed, rabbits need good leafy greens. (Here's a good list of safe veggies). Jess...Rabbit.org gives how much to feed over 1 yr. old. http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html#mature , I wasn't sure either. For example, Sunny's a Californian, so she gets 2 cups a day + 1/4 cup of pellets.


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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 01-02-2010, 05:38 PM
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Oh OK, it says 2 cups per 6 lbs for the veggies. Smudge gets unlimited hay, 1/8 cup pellets (vets orders... otherwise he get spurs), and what probably amounts to about 2 cups veggies. Smudge is about 4.5 lbs.



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