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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-24-2004, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
Wacky Chimpnose
 
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Red face chrisanne or anyone-dog training ques

i have a small problem with my yorkie, penny. she went to puppy school and knows a lot of tricks. when i tell her to do a trick she does it right away with no problems. the problem is this: as soon as she does the trick, she expects a treat. well, if i don't give her one RIGHT AWAY, she will do another trick to get a treat. she doesn't do this with "stay" because she knows that that trick is all about waiting. but i can't get her to hold any other trick (ie: sit or down). so here are my questions:
how can i get her to hold the tricks? if i don't do anything (ie: no praise or treat) she thinks she did something wrong and tries something else. if i tell her "good girl", she thinks we are done. if i give her a treat she thinks she's done with that trick and that it's time for something else. how can i re-introduce a "free" command?
also, how can i ween her off the treats?

my other dog, chaquita (chi/schipperke mix) is fine. she like praise and will hold the position. can you tell which one is the little princess?

i would eventually like for them to understand that these aren't just "tricks" per say, but things they should do when i tell them in public.

thanks!!


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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-25-2004, 02:23 AM
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To get her to hold a trick....say it's drop that you want her to hold. Get her to drop give her a treat...get her to drop again, wait one second, treat her for that and make it longer until she learns that drop doesn't mean just for an instant....you apply this to all tricks!!
To wean her off tricks I just stopped giving Biscuit tricks all the time. Some times she gets good girl, other times she gets a treat. She does it always cause she doesn't know if she is getting the treat or not (she only gets it in a training session now...all other times she is expected to do it and she does). If good girl is her release command try praising her in another way....introduce another word to her that can be praising her but so she doesn't think she is done....I think it will be easier than trying to teach her that good girl is a praise and introducing a new release command. The praising word can be anything, so long as she understands what it means so make one up!!
I don't have a lot of time right now so I'm only replying real quick but ask any questions you want and I'll do my best to answer them for you!

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-25-2004, 03:15 AM
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Carmen had alot of good suggestions.....sometimes that is the problem with training with treats, I find that clicker training tends to work a little bit better only because there are no treats involved. I know when you started teaching her tricks you were using treats, so I would use Carmens suggestions for the weaning process off of treats, but you may also want to use a clicker at the same time


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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-25-2004, 09:37 AM
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I agree Carmen had a lot of good ideas to try.

Also I would suggest slowly weaning off the treats in the same manor. Make her wait longer each time for the treat, start not giving a treat and praising instead. Also, reinforce the praise with "good girl, sit" so she has an understanding of why she's getting the praise.


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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-25-2004, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
Wacky Chimpnose
 
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gracias everyone!

i think i will do as you suggested carmen and introduce a new praise word. good girl can be her release phrase. maybe i'll say "watermelon butt alligator fish". what do you think?

also, i DO have a clicker. maybe i can click, praise and treat at the same time. then just click and praise. then just click OR praise. would that work?

muchas gracias!!


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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-25-2004, 10:46 PM
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clicker or praise would work. I use both.


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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-25-2004, 11:27 PM Thread Starter
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cool. so i guess i just have to work with her and make her wait a little bit longer each time she does the trick. ok! haha.


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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2004, 02:03 AM
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Hey I have a question.....when I was taught to use a clicker with Biscuit I was told that the clicker meant they were getting a reward....even if you press it accidently, they HAVE to get a treat if they hear their click. I was taught that the clicker is used as it is instant...so if your dog sits for half a second when first training thry get clicked in that half a second and then they know that they got rewarded for the sit....not the stand up and run off trick that they did while you were trying to get a treat to them. So how do you guys use your clicker?

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2004, 02:16 AM Thread Starter
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i think you use it just like you would a food reward. when you are first training them, you give them a treat right away so that they know what they got the treat for. then you slowly increase the amount of time between telling them to "sit" (for example) and giving them the treat. i think you can do this with a clicker. i've seen people with really good dogs tell them, "sit", the dog sits, they immediately click and the dog stays like that until released.

ques:
for penny, after i get her to hold her position longer while using food treats and after i combine the food treat with a click, i will switch to just a click. when i do this, do i immediately click when she does the trick (i won't be giving a food reward at this point)? do i wait a long time between the command and the click? see, to penny, once she gets the food, she thinks the trick is over. how can i teach her that it's not? i know i need to teach a release command, but how do i do that? she will just take her treat and run off. does this all make sense? basically, whether i give her a food treat or a click (eventually) i think she will think that's the end of it. but i want it to mean "that's right!!". how do i tell her she did the right thing without her thinking i mean that we are done? cause right now, that's what the food treat means.

thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2004, 02:20 AM Thread Starter
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btw - does anyone know where the clicker training <sticky> thread is? i thought there was one in Dogs. ???


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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2004, 02:27 AM
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For Biscuit I threw the treat away from her so that she had to come back to me and she'd get rewarded again when she re-did the trick. That way she is getting rewarded for doing her trick but she is learning the focus in on you and she is to stay with you until you release her. So for Biscuit it was drop that was her problem...she would only do it with food and never without. So we started throwing it away and as soon as she'd eat that piece of food (1.3 seconds) I'd say her name and say 'drop' once and wait for her to do it and then click and throw the treat away. To get her to stay in that position....have two pieces of food....give her one instantly but let her see the other one and hold it so she can see it.....it will only be an extra second at first (get it to her before she moves so she is always succeeding an dnot faling...she will learn quicker) and slowly increase the time...once she has that down pat start throwing the food away and getting her to come back so you aren't the hand that feeds her. Throw in all different directions but easy enough for her to find straight away...it's too hard if they spend 2 minutes looking for a small piece of cheese! Then she doesn't associate you with the food and she has to keep doing the trick to keep getting rewarded. She'll quickly learn that you stay and do the trick you get more treats. Then just start doing it by once giving her a treat thrown away and then second time she gets a 'watermelon butt alligator fish' then a treat and a treat, then a 'watermelon butt alligator fish' and keep mixing it up so she doesn't know what she's getting but at first keep giving her just enough of the food to keep her interested....I'd keep Chaquita away while you are doing this so she doesn't distract Penny and get Penny to focus on you!!!! Only say 'good girl' when you are finished and keep calling her back if she wanders off...only do it for five and ten minutes at a time at first then give her a release time of about ten minutes and get her back to go again. It will build up her concentration span!

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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-26-2004, 09:49 AM
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I use the clicker and reinforce it with praise. I have never treat trained my dogs. Luckily, I've had good fortune with it


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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-27-2004, 02:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSbunny
To get her to stay in that position....have two pieces of food....give her one instantly but let her see the other one and hold it so she can see it.....it will only be an extra second at first (get it to her before she moves so she is always succeeding an dnot faling...she will learn quicker) and slowly increase the time...

i remember i used to do that in puppy class. i would tell her to do the trick and give her a treat while holding another one ready. she would stay there and hold it longer. but now, since giving the treat means "we're done", if i show her another treat she'll think it's time for a new trick. i think i will have to give her the treats very quickly (like when she was a puppy) again.

oh how i wish i could hire a professional trainer for a month!!


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