No doesn't mean No? - Page 3 - Paw Talk - Pet Forums
Dogs Wagging tails, wet noses, unconditional love, and everything else that goes along with canines!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-15-2003, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
 
Thanks Deja,

Yeah, i was googling that collar in case i needed a pic... it's hard to explain. In doing so, i ran across three references telling me i should have 'a' collar on the dog, but NOT a correction collar, while he's a pup. So i kinda figured that's what you meant. Some things don't sink into my thick old skull any better than they sink into my pup's thick baby skull.

In my defense, i'll say i've had a long time to get set in my ways.

I think the other element missing here is the 'safe' room. I didn't get that bit, and i was wondering how the heck you could ever let a puppy out of his crate w/out constant supervision. It's the moment that he's unsupervised, (the VERY moment), that he gets in trouble.

Off topic, i gather you live in North Jersey? Them's my old stomping grounds... i grew up on Schooley's Mountain, Washington Township. Or rather, i lived there for my first sixteen years, then i left and grew up.

-Papa_B
Papa_B is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-20-2003, 06:55 AM
Wacky Chimpnose
 
Formula86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 37
Posts: 6,239
    
any updates papa_b?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Formula86 is offline  
post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-20-2003, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
 
Quote:
Originally posted by formula86
any updates papa_b?
Thanks for asking.

I was starting to feel like a pest here... all these long stories and stuff. Thought it better maybe to suffer in silence.

Kona isn't getting any better at "no." We still don't know what to do. We can say "no" any way we want, we can get his attention and say "no," we can try our best without physically punishing the dog, to make "no" an unpleasant thing. He doesn't care.

E.g., one day i'm watching Kona jump up on my wife while she's sitting at the table. I said "don't let him do that," and she said "what am I supposed to do?" and i said "shove him off and tell him "no." So she did, and i watched her do it six times in a row.

No, no, no, No, NO, NOOOOoo!

*sigh*
-Papa_B
Papa_B is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-20-2003, 03:15 PM
Paw-Talk Addict
 
Deja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,875
     
Papa - I'm the queen of the long story around here Everyone knows I can't make a post that is less than a page if I think I have something to say....

Don't ever feel like you can't come here and rant! Pages and pages if you want

[center]
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[
Deja is offline  
post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-20-2003, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
 
Bad example i wrote there i think.

Watch my wife:
  • Wife greets dog, who is happy to see her.
  • Dog proceeds to chew on wife's hand, gleefully.
  • Wife says, "No,"
  • Dog stops biting, momentarily.
  • Wife says, "Good boy, Kona."
  • Dog says "cool, i'm a good boy," and resumes biting.
  • Wife says "NO!" and gives him praise and a chew toy.
  • Wife says, "Good boy, Kona."
  • Dog resumes biting.
  • Repeat.

Now watch me:
  • /me at computer, working.
  • Dog chases cat, corners it, and starts barking.
  • /me says NO!
  • Dog stops barking, momentarily.
  • /me says, "Good boy, Kona."
  • Dog resumes harassing cat.
  • /me gets up, goes over to dog, says "no," gives him a toy, plays for a bit, tells him what a good dog he is.
  • /me resumes work.
  • Dog resumes harassing cat.
  • /me sighs, goes and tells dog "no," gives him a toy, praises him, plays a bit.
  • Dog stops playing to chase cat out the door, /me yells "NO" at his butt as it disappears.
  • Repeat, with some other "no" thing.
See, we're trying real hard. We're trying to be consistent at all this, maybe with a lapse here or there. Unfortunately Kona doesn't always get praise for stopping the bad behavior, because he thinks it means it's OK to start again, and he doesn't always get redirection because we're trying to have a life.

Also, unless i'm mistakenly anthropomorphizing, his misbehavior very often looks to me like a bid for attention. I don't know that it's good to reward the misbehavior by giving him attention, so more and more often he's going to his crate with no comment except "bed."

I didn't mind him being crated more often than not, but i don't like him being crated most of the time, if you know what i mean. For one thing, he stores up energy in there.

-Papa_B
Papa_B is offline  
post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 12-20-2003, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
 
Quote:
Don't ever feel like you can't come here and rant! Pages and pages if you want
<grin>

Hi Deja!

I was learning BBCode whilst you were posting to me. I used it to tell another long story.

-Papa_B
Papa_B is offline  
post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-24-2004, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
 
Halllp!!!!

No STILL doesn't mean No!

If i'm counting right, Kona is going on 4 months now. He's house trained, he knows "sit," "come," "heel," (on the leash, anyway), "Go to your bed," and "down," (if you give him a cookie for that last one.)

Why, WHY can't we get him to respond to that simple, one-syllable word? NO! How many bad things have to happen to him in conjunction with the word "No" that he gets the idea he shouldn't do NO things?

I have to admit it works better for me than it does for my wife. He usually stops doing whatever it is if i say no... unless he's really determined then i have to say NO really loud. My wife might as well say "Flibbertigibble" for all the good it does.

I believe the biggest difference is that i've gotten mad more than her, and i've gotten physical with the dog. It hasn't made him shy or nervous... like some dull-witted people it seems like violence is the only thing that earns his respect. I don't like it though, and my wife will probly never do it.

PLEASE HALP! If this dog keeps beating up my wife i'm going to kill him.

-Papa_B

Papa_B is offline  
post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-24-2004, 08:15 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,971
      
He is adorable, and definately has some Rott in there.

I would at this point strongly recommend obiedience classes.
Chrisanne is offline  
post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-24-2004, 08:26 PM
Wacky Chimpnose
 
Formula86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 37
Posts: 6,239
    
hi there again!! long time...
well, i think that your wife needs to do all of those tricks with kona just like you do. she needs to do sit, down, stay and all that because that is what will establish dominance. kona doesn't see her as a leader, just you because you are the only one who is showing it.

and about the 'getting physical' thing:
i use physical measures all the time with my LITTLE dogs (it doesn't hurt them). if one of them bites, i yell (and i mean YELL) "no bite!" and press down on their tongues. if one of them is going crazy on her leash, i pull on it and yell "no" to correct them. physical punishment doesn't mean beating your dog. it just means getting the dogs attention. think about it like this: if you were to correct a teenage kid about using too many cell phone minutes (stay with me here), what would be more effective?: a lecture or taking the phone away for a month? an actual physical action leaves a lasting impression.

if kona were jumping on you, let's say, i would push him using a SPECIFIC word like "off" (my dogs learned this word in a few days) and make him sit. then pet him. if he does it again and doesn't respond to the command, i would lock him in another room (for about 5 min). he'll want to be around you and this way you are punishing without giving attention (which you mentioned before).

about the word NO, i would assign a specific word for what he's doing wrong. ie, getting on people = "OFF". chasing cats = "no chase!" (maybe add a collar tug). pestering wife in morning = "OUT" (as in out of room). maybe he doesn't respond to NO because NO means something specific to him (like whatever you used it for FIRST). now he doesn't know what you mean.

let us know how it goes!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Formula86 is offline  
post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-24-2004, 08:28 PM
Wacky Chimpnose
 
Formula86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dallas, TX
Age: 37
Posts: 6,239
    
one more quick thing - don't get too upset. he is soooo young still. this is the exact age that i took penny to OBIEDIENCE SCHOOL! haha. i would do this. but keep in mind: let your wife go, maybe, most of the time to help her establish dominace.

and oh yah...he's really cute!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Formula86 is offline  
post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-24-2004, 09:18 PM
Tarzan Mama of Two
 
RSbunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The land down under!
Age: 36
Posts: 7,329
       
Hi! I'm just going to stick my head in here and try and help your wife out with the jumping thing. My last dog used to love to get up on my lap (well his front half of the body anyway cause he was big) and nothing I did seemed to help. I ended up having an animal behaviourist come out and see him (he became quite aggressive...the story didn't end happily but the behaviourist gave me some great advice). My dog craved attention also and I never crate trained him, why? Because not many people know about crate training in Aus and I won't go into a form of training blind! Anyway the best way was to get my arm push him off, say off and then turn my back and ignore him. If he tried to jump up again I'd keep my back turned and continued to ignore him. If he came around to my side so that he was looking at me again I would simply turn the other way. If he became very persistent I would get up and walk away and not let him follow me by closing the door behind me. I swear in two days my dog no longer did this! Kona is using it as a dominance issue with your wife...I definently recommend obedience classes also and it would be a good idea that you both went to the obedience classes. If your work hours don't allow that then your wife would be the better one to go so that she can learn how to be alpha over your dog. If you go alone it will just re-inforce that you are the leader in the pack and Kona will continue to believe that he is higher than your wife. Please keep us updated!! I want to know how this all pans out and I'm sure many other people on here do also!

Too lazy to even think of a siggy
RSbunny is offline  
post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-25-2004, 10:55 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 724
 
HI there! Kona is adorable! he looks like my sister's Rottie when she was a baby. I just thought I'd mention a neat way that my sister taught her golden puppy not to mouth. She bought bitter apple the spray and she would spray it on her hands and ankles and bottom of her furniture, just any place she didn't want Jak to knaw. It worked like a charm. She just put it on right before she interacted with him and it only took a few days to get the message through loud and clear. The next puppy I get I'm planning to use that method! He's 9 months old now and he is very well behaved, well for a 9 month old!
BrendaLynn is offline  
post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-26-2004, 01:08 AM
Paw-Talk Addict
 
Deja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 1,875
     
Hiya Papa! Good to see you back on the board
I'm sorry you are still having some trouble with Kona - I'm sure you are very frustrated and sometimes feel like you are on your last raw nerve with him. He sure is gorgeous though!

If you have tried confinement, keeping him on a leash at all times so you are always in control of his every move and can redirect, correct and praise - crating, consistant basic obedience sessions ( and they should be actual sessions with a start, work and finish with the dog performing a successful command and definate clear signal to end the session with a "your free!", or "we're finished!" and reward with a happy play session with a favorite toy reserved and only used during your post work sessions) and he is still not responding - I am going to make a controversial suggestion.

I might get blasted for making this suggestion - but it does sound like you have exhausted all your options (except consulting a professional, which is going to be a big part of what I am about to suggest) as far as consistant positive behavior modification. Have you done any research on e-collars?
The reason why I say that is because when I was training my now almost 9 year old Golden Retriever he was an absolute horror. He was dominant, a persistant jumper and very rough play biter and just would NOT accept me as pack leader no matter what I tried. I also had very young children at the time and lots of kids in and out of my house constantly and given his size, even playful jumping up on one of the kids, or yanking on their sweat pants and trying to play *tug* with their clothing was really unacceptable. He also had a persistant jumping habit, would raid the garbage pails, steal food by jumping up to reach the kitchen counter top and would habitually *door crash*. He'd bolt and run out the door ignoring every command we gave him.
I consulted with and hired a professional trainer who worked with me, and Jack (and my husband and children, it was a whole family effort) - and I developed a good relationship with this trainer, and from there learned a lot about behavior, problem solving and dog training in general, he was great - and started me on the path to really getting into dog training. Anyway - as usual I am gettting off topic :eyeroll:
I ended up learning how to determine if an e-collar would be benificial for certain dogs with specific temperaments -and how to use them properly.
If used correctly and I stress *used* not abused - they can really quicky help establish solid leadership, without harming or hurting the dog. The collar should be one that delivers a warning tone and a delay (giving the dog a chance to respond to the tone) before delivering the correction - which can be anything from a mild unpleasant vibration, to what would feel like an unpleasant static electricity shock to us. That is the key- unpleasant but not painful correction followed by positive reinforcement for compliance and obedience. Remember, a dog's pain threshold is sometimes very high and some dogs do need a stronger correction because nothing short of that will really get their attention and redirect their focus.
Anyway - I *rarely if ever* suggest using this type of training method on any dog - but if Kona is still mouthing and nipping, not responding to verbal commands or traditional methods of correction and redirection, this may be an option for you to explore.
I am saying this because I read that you are sometimes resorting to "physical" means to correct him. This can really escalate the very problem you want to solve. By using an e-collar properly, the dog does not associate the correction with you, or your hands - and if he is making the association between your physical person and a negative experience - you could be setting him up for a lot of problems in the future. Dogs like people respond in kind - negative physical contact breeds negative physical contact. They learn from example.
By delivering a correction from the collar in conjunction with a verbal command he will begin to associate the negative consequence with the verbal command - and not your hand. Associating your hands with physical discomfort will cause him to respond with biting and nipping because that is what you are teaching him to do.

If this sounds like something you feel might work for you please, please, please do tons of research on the various products and consult with someone who will teach you how to use it properly. It is well worth the investment - trust me.
You can't just go out and buy one, slap it on the dog and expect to get results. You, your wife and Kona all need to be trained on it's use, and the oh so very important positive reinforcement in the form of lavish praise when he responds.

Consult with a professional trainer and have his temerament tested and assessed. He or she will be able to help you choose the proper tool (which may not include an e-collar), train you on how to train Kona using different methods, and you will probably see results and positive modifications to his behavior, response and his acceptance of your (and your wife's) leadership and guidance very quickly. If used they are also only used short term during obedience training sessions - and not left on the dog all the time to be used at random.

I strongly urge you to start structured obedience training with Kona under the supervision of a professional, before his frustrating behavior turns into behavior that is irreversable and potentially aggresive to the point of Kona being a danger and unpredictable as far as biting.

Again - and I know I am repeating myself, but I can't stress enough the importance of getting professional help at this point.
Frustration to the point of physical dicipline can quicky escalate Kona's negative and unacceptable habits.

Sorry that was so long...

Good Luck and keep us posted. And everyone reading this - feel free to comment on my suggestions... I may be off base with my long distance, sight unseen interperatation and assesment of Kona's temperament. I'm basing my response on your explanations of what has transpired since you started posting.

I know how well professional training worked for Jack - and for other dogs that were unwilling to stop fighting to be "top dog" or "pack leader", use of an e-collar has completely turned them around.
Again - under the supervision, guidence and observation of Kona's behavior by an experienced trainer the e-collar might not be nescessary... he just may need a good few months of structured obedience training - and that means training you and most importantly your wife on how to train Kona. You both have to be on the same page, using the same methods.

Keep us posted

[center]
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[
Deja is offline  
post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-27-2004, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
 
So i left my browser open for 24 hours while i composed a 5000 word essay/diatribe, pushed "submit" and watched the page time out.

So i got my catharsis and y'all were spared.

Sometimes i think there's an inherent intelligence behind computer glitches.

In summary:

@All:
Yes, Kona will be going to some sort of formal training. It's a kick in my ego, but hey, i'm already in a public forum screaming for HAallp. Huh. In any case he's not invited until after his third puppy shots, which is soon. I'm a bit apprehensive because he's so easily distracted by EVERYTHING... i just can't picture him getting much training in an inherently distracting environment. But, i'm told he needs 'socialized' so meh.

And i think i will let my wife take him. That idea amuses me.

@formula86:
I like your idea about using different words. Heck i already say stuff like "get outa here" and "quit that" and more often than not Kona knows what i mean. The hard part is consistancy. It takes a tremendous amount of willpower and focus to say the right words and not the wrong ones. I'm probably best at it around this house, but still occasionally find myself saying "Kona" and "No" in the same sentence, like i forgot what the dog manual said.

@Deja:
I think i may have misunderstood the confinement thing from the very beginning. But, we all have lives to go about, doesn't what you suggest lead to the dog being confined an inordinate amount of time? Kona is usually loose when i'm home, and i'm home a lot since i work here. Even so, i already feel like i'm crating him too much. Guilty, like i'm getting rid of a problem. Of course, if i don't, then that's a problem too. *sigh*

I think i'll give him a bit more time before i do something like a shock collar. For training purposes i've settled on one of these:



It's called a "Gentle Leader Headcollar" and it's the greatest thing since someone put peanut butter on sliced bread. It works almost exactly like a horse halter, it pulls the dog by the nose and everything else has to follow. That's the best part, the dog HAS NO CHOICE but to go in the direction you pull the lead, since his face is going there. No, maybe the best part is it directs the dog's attention AT YOU, the important person he's supposed to be paying attention to. The only problem i've had is occasionally if Kona doesnt want to go forward for some reason, he can sit down on his haunches and let me tug on his face. In that case, i've just said a word or two of encouragement and give a couple little tugs, and he's always gone along with me.

I can post a URL, if it's not considered spam here. This collar cost me $20 but was well worth it.

It's supposed to work around the home too, if you attach a drag line to it, you can get hold of the line to make corrections. I haven't tried it yet, primarily because i'm usually hollering from across the room anyway.

=======

So OK, i'll keep y'all posted. I think it's a good idea to try some different vocabulary. If NO doesn't mean NO, then perhaps "OFF" will mean "OFF." Hmm when i write it down it doesn't logically follow... but i'm thinking that with a vocabulary that includes "sit," "heel," "come," "stay," "down," "bed," and "pig's ears," he can handle a few more words.

Many Thanks,
Papa_B
Papa_B is offline  
post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 01-31-2004, 11:30 AM
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 724
 
Good luck Papa B sounds like you've got everything under control!
BrendaLynn is offline  
Reply

Tags
boston terrier, chew toy, crate trained, crate training, dog training, german shepherd, golden retriever, hind legs, obedience training, pet store, pit bull, potty train, potty training


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome