Punish the deed, Not the breed - Page 2 - Paw Talk - Pet Forums
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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-21-2010, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mygala View Post
You have provided a perfect example of why BSL's happen.

It's not just about dogs biting people. The people who are pushing BSL's can present their case with a single paragraph. All it takes is a dead or mutilated child, an elderly person attacked, or someone's pet killed... Simple facts, easy to digest.

The people fighting them try to come up with all kinds of facts, figures, reports, studies, etc. to prove their point. They come up with tons of stuff that no one is going to read. You provided a perfect example of something few folks want to take the time to read. Your "facts" are wasted if no one reads them.

You can shout this stuff until you're blue in the face, but unless you make is short, readable and compelling, you are just another voice in the wind. Making a post like this does nothing but make you feel good. And if anyone does read it, you can bet they've already made up their minds on this issue. They probably even own one of the dogs you mention. You are, in essence, "preaching to the choir".

This is an emotionally driven issue. You aren't going to win with by boring the opposition to death.

I don't know what's going to work at these city council meetings.

But I do know what ISN'T going to work. ...your approach has failed miserably up until now. Voters are what politicians respond to, ...not reams of facts. ...and voters respond to chewed up children.

Until you can stop the media feeding frenzy that surrounds each baby killed by a "pit bull", ...you aren't going to stop breed specific legislations from passing.

THAT's a fact.

Bob
here's my question... did you even bother to read my short simple and sweet post that shows people how to stop BSL?

are you actually interested in BSL?

i think that you forget about how easy it is to rant online,and that's what this was a rant. Some people will not read it, but they will also have the good sense not to respond to it.

Maybe we should give more instructive criticism, like maybe showing us how we move the public instead of just saying "you're wrong". In fact instead of everything you just posted why don't you recommend some writing tips so that we can get through to people Chin. or maybe help me find a petition or another congressman to write.

Sorria; i'm going to read this website and see if maybe i can write a concise rant to get people interested... or maybe you can too~!

http://www.copyblogger.com/persuasive-writing/

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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 09:19 AM
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Jennicat for the win!

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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 09:26 AM
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Seriously, you people need to read up on genetics.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is disturbing when you are so rude to people who actually take the time to get into this stuff.

Hmm, I wonder why people don't come to this forum anymore...

I'm going to go away for a few months again.

THIS is why some of us have an idiotic stereotype view on americans...

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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinchi View Post
Seriously, you people need to read up on genetics.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is disturbing when you are so rude to people who actually take the time to get into this stuff.

Hmm, I wonder why people don't come to this forum anymore...

I'm going to go away for a few months again.

THIS is why some of us have an idiotic stereotype view on americans...
And WHO is being rude here?

Your claim is we have a lack of understanding on this subject... now, where are your facts to back up that claim?

I think quite the opposite... we have a very good understanding, it is you who have a lack of understanding, and have bought into the media hysteria perpetuated about certain breeds of dog.

Your claim was that some "dogs" are just aggressive. Yes, that is true, some *INDIVIDUAL* dogs are just aggressive. Sometimes that is due to training and socializing - they either were not properly trained and socialized, or they were specifically trained to be aggressive. Sometimes that is due to genetics - those *INDIVIDUAL* dogs inherited genetic qualities that make them aggressive. Sometimes it is due to health - a sick or injured animals is naturally going to be aggressive as a self-preservation measure.

HOWEVER - there are NO breeds that are actually, genetically aggressive. NONE. In EVERY breed that has a "reputation" (and remember, reputation doesn't mean a whole lot - blondes have certain reputations, so do redheads, so do caucasians, hispanics, africans and african americans, europeans, canadians, and everyone else on this planet, doesn't mean those reputations are true!) , there are individuals that *may* be aggressive, and there are many more individuals (that you do not get to hear about, I have yet to see a media outlet report on the sweet, cuddly pit bull that wants nothing more to lick its childrens' faces and cuddle up with its owners in front of the fire for a night of watching "Lassie" reruns) who are NOT aggressive. And for every breed that does not have a reputation for being aggressive, there most certainly ARE aggressive individuals.

If you can't understand this, if you refuse to understand this, it is YOU who have a lack of understanding on the subject. And I have a strong suspicion this is the case, since you are refusing to read any post that is "too long". You simply cannot debate a subject if you refuse to read what is presented.
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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Jennicat and Destroyah! You understand what I've been getting at.

And thanks for the links too! I've filed them away in my "links" file for future reference too.
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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinchi View Post
Seriously, you people need to read up on genetics.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is disturbing when you are so rude to people who actually take the time to get into this stuff.

Hmm, I wonder why people don't come to this forum anymore...

I'm going to go away for a few months again.

THIS is why some of us have an idiotic stereotype view on americans...
um, i would love to hear an explanation on why you think your argument explains genetic predisposition. it's hard to debate with you when you haven't read the source material you're speaking about. in the past 10 years many studies have come out proving that most BSL is based on dog behavior myths for example

Myth One: Some Dog Breeds Are Inherently Aggressive
It has been said that some breeds, such as the rottweiler or the American pit bull, are inherently aggressive and therefore dangerous. This is not true. No dog breed is inherently aggressive. All dog breeds can display aggressive behavior if mistreated, abused or frightened.

Dogs may become aggressive out of fear. Dogs may also become aggressive when they are abused by those who desire aggressive guard or fighting dogs.

Myth Two: An Aggressive Dog Cannot Be Re-Trained
This is also untrue. Socialization and obedience training can help your dog learn to be open with other dogs and people. Psychotropic medication may help your aggressive dog begin the retraining process.

Myth Three: Agressive Dogs Are Too Dangerous to Handle
Some dog breeds may exhibit behavior so aggressive that professional training is required, especially if the dog has been very harshly mistreated. However, most aggressive behavior, such as barking and attack posing, can be retrained by the owner who has sought sound professional advice.

i'm trying to engage you because clearly we disagree, i'm not trying to be rude.

i hope when you come back you'll be able to listen to both sides of the argument and contribute, or if its too difficult to read a long post... start your own thread, i'm just saying

i'm still confused as to what happened that was so offensive.

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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 12:45 PM
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i also fail to see why my being an american is relevant... can someone tell me what i did that so stereotypically american? if i did something out of control, let me know.

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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Sorraia View Post
Thanks Jennicat and Destroyah! You understand what I've been getting at.

And thanks for the links too! I've filed them away in my "links" file for future reference too.
no problem! maybe rants are an american thing? lol, jk

i was just really exhausted with what she said. especially after so many 10 year studies JUST cam out about breed legislation in Britain and other European countries NOT WORKING.

i read you're whole rant because if i put that much effort into it, well it deserved to be read (or at least i want mine read ). and if i disagreed with you i would have jumped on you quicker than anyone else~! i love debate

they did however make a good point, maybe a shorter rant next time will get your point across too more people. people are lazy~!

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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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i also fail to see why my being an american is relevant... can someone tell me what i did that so stereotypically american? if i did something out of control, let me know.
LOL The only action or behavior I can see that might be upsetting to this person is that we are actually standing up for what we believe instead of rolling over and playing dead! Even worse that we can back up our stance with facts!
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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-22-2010, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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they did however make a good point, maybe a shorter rant next time will get your point across too more people. people are lazy~!
A rant posted specifically for a message board typically would have been shorter. What I posted was originally a blog post I made months ago. I really didn't feel like going back and rewriting the whole thing.
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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-23-2010, 09:00 AM
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so i was curious and did research on both sides of the fence and there are just as many studies and tests that say dog breeds are born naturally aggressive... i think the biggest problem they are facing is defining the term "aggressive" as in some people think herding instincts are "aggressive".

The majority of dog breeds are considered bad family pets for people who haven't owned dogs before, especially those with more muscle mass. A couple of years ago a study was released that in my state labs and lab mixes were the dogs with the most bites on their record, probably because they are popular and no one thinks they will bite. the most recent study i could find on the opposite side of the fence was from 1997, but i'm still looking into it, if anyone would like to return to the original debate...

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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-23-2010, 09:27 AM
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Again, these studies are notoriously difficult because they are relying on breed identification usually by either those who were attacked or animal control officers. You know how things are identified at our animal control? Black dog = lab. Short coat w/square head = pit. Small dog = chihuahua. Skinny dog = greyhound. That's ignoring the fact that there are dozens of breeds of dogs which superficially resemble pit bulls, AND that pit bull mixes are quite common -- if a pit bull, lab mix bites someone, why is it because it's a pit bull?

Chinchi, this is easily the third or fourth time I've seen you devolve into slurs on people's nationalities when you didn't agree with them. If you're such a xenophobe maybe you shouldnt' be on a forum with Americans?

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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-23-2010, 10:56 AM
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that is true, i do agree on that. It takes time, and usually a doctor ho knows what they're doing to identify a breed. that's why i loved that find the pitbull quiz, i posted in on my facebook i liked it so much.

how many people actually know what a dogo argentino is?

Although i had a distinct advantage in that one as i used to work at a no kill shelter and i specifically trained/rehabilitated bully breeds for them.

i have trained a lot of former fighting pits and usually they are not people aggressive they are dog aggressive.

Many of them ended up going to families, and some eventually were able to live with other dogs. My favorite bait dog Tanya helped found a pitbull therapy organization with her new family... including a toddler and 2 other pits. There is evidence every day that breed discrimination is not the right answer. Educating people and their pets is.

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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-23-2010, 10:58 AM
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Chinchi, this is easily the third or fourth time I've seen you devolve into slurs on people's nationalities when you didn't agree with them. If you're such a xenophobe maybe you shouldnt' be on a forum with Americans?
wow i had no idea... i swear i was just having a normal conversation with her where we agreed to disagree on another thread. maybe shes just taking a lot of unpopular sides... we'll find out in a few months when she comes back and we're ALL STILL HERE

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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 12-23-2010, 04:27 PM
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that is true, i do agree on that. It takes time, and usually a doctor ho knows what they're doing to identify a breed. that's why i loved that find the pitbull quiz, i posted in on my facebook i liked it so much.

how many people actually know what a dogo argentino is?

Although i had a distinct advantage in that one as i used to work at a no kill shelter and i specifically trained/rehabilitated bully breeds for them.

i have trained a lot of former fighting pits and usually they are not people aggressive they are dog aggressive.

Many of them ended up going to families, and some eventually were able to live with other dogs. My favorite bait dog Tanya helped found a pitbull therapy organization with her new family... including a toddler and 2 other pits. There is evidence every day that breed discrimination is not the right answer. Educating people and their pets is.
I absolutly agree that education will be the key.


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