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Seriously, you people need to read up on genetics.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject is disturbing when you are so rude to people who actually take the time to get into this stuff.

Hmm, I wonder why people don't come to this forum anymore...

I'm going to go away for a few months again.

THIS is why some of us have an idiotic stereotype view on americans...
um, i would love to hear an explanation on why you think your argument explains genetic predisposition. it's hard to debate with you when you haven't read the source material you're speaking about. in the past 10 years many studies have come out proving that most BSL is based on dog behavior myths for example

Myth One: Some Dog Breeds Are Inherently Aggressive
It has been said that some breeds, such as the rottweiler or the American pit bull, are inherently aggressive and therefore dangerous. This is not true. No dog breed is inherently aggressive. All dog breeds can display aggressive behavior if mistreated, abused or frightened.

Dogs may become aggressive out of fear. Dogs may also become aggressive when they are abused by those who desire aggressive guard or fighting dogs.

Myth Two: An Aggressive Dog Cannot Be Re-Trained
This is also untrue. Socialization and obedience training can help your dog learn to be open with other dogs and people. Psychotropic medication may help your aggressive dog begin the retraining process.

Myth Three: Agressive Dogs Are Too Dangerous to Handle
Some dog breeds may exhibit behavior so aggressive that professional training is required, especially if the dog has been very harshly mistreated. However, most aggressive behavior, such as barking and attack posing, can be retrained by the owner who has sought sound professional advice.

i'm trying to engage you because clearly we disagree, i'm not trying to be rude.

i hope when you come back you'll be able to listen to both sides of the argument and contribute, or if its too difficult to read a long post... start your own thread, i'm just saying

i'm still confused as to what happened that was so offensive.
 

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i also fail to see why my being an american is relevant... can someone tell me what i did that so stereotypically american? if i did something out of control, let me know.
 

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Thanks Jennicat and Destroyah! You understand what I've been getting at. ;) :D

And thanks for the links too! I've filed them away in my "links" file for future reference too.
no problem! maybe rants are an american thing? lol, jk

i was just really exhausted with what she said. especially after so many 10 year studies JUST cam out about breed legislation in Britain and other European countries NOT WORKING.

i read you're whole rant because if i put that much effort into it, well it deserved to be read (or at least i want mine read ;) ). and if i disagreed with you i would have jumped on you quicker than anyone else~! i love debate :)

they did however make a good point, maybe a shorter rant next time will get your point across too more people. people are lazy~!
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
i also fail to see why my being an american is relevant... can someone tell me what i did that so stereotypically american? if i did something out of control, let me know.
LOL The only action or behavior I can see that might be upsetting to this person is that we are actually standing up for what we believe instead of rolling over and playing dead! Even worse that we can back up our stance with facts! ;) :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
they did however make a good point, maybe a shorter rant next time will get your point across too more people. people are lazy~!
A rant posted specifically for a message board typically would have been shorter. What I posted was originally a blog post I made months ago. I really didn't feel like going back and rewriting the whole thing. ;)
 

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so i was curious and did research on both sides of the fence and there are just as many studies and tests that say dog breeds are born naturally aggressive... i think the biggest problem they are facing is defining the term "aggressive" as in some people think herding instincts are "aggressive".

The majority of dog breeds are considered bad family pets for people who haven't owned dogs before, especially those with more muscle mass. A couple of years ago a study was released that in my state labs and lab mixes were the dogs with the most bites on their record, probably because they are popular and no one thinks they will bite. the most recent study i could find on the opposite side of the fence was from 1997, but i'm still looking into it, if anyone would like to return to the original debate...
 

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Again, these studies are notoriously difficult because they are relying on breed identification usually by either those who were attacked or animal control officers. You know how things are identified at our animal control? Black dog = lab. Short coat w/square head = pit. Small dog = chihuahua. Skinny dog = greyhound. That's ignoring the fact that there are dozens of breeds of dogs which superficially resemble pit bulls, AND that pit bull mixes are quite common -- if a pit bull, lab mix bites someone, why is it because it's a pit bull?

Chinchi, this is easily the third or fourth time I've seen you devolve into slurs on people's nationalities when you didn't agree with them. If you're such a xenophobe maybe you shouldnt' be on a forum with Americans?
 

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that is true, i do agree on that. It takes time, and usually a doctor ho knows what they're doing to identify a breed. that's why i loved that find the pitbull quiz, i posted in on my facebook i liked it so much.

how many people actually know what a dogo argentino is?

Although i had a distinct advantage in that one as i used to work at a no kill shelter and i specifically trained/rehabilitated bully breeds for them.

i have trained a lot of former fighting pits and usually they are not people aggressive they are dog aggressive.

Many of them ended up going to families, and some eventually were able to live with other dogs. My favorite bait dog Tanya helped found a pitbull therapy organization with her new family... including a toddler and 2 other pits. There is evidence every day that breed discrimination is not the right answer. Educating people and their pets is.
 

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Chinchi, this is easily the third or fourth time I've seen you devolve into slurs on people's nationalities when you didn't agree with them. If you're such a xenophobe maybe you shouldnt' be on a forum with Americans?
wow i had no idea... i swear i was just having a normal conversation with her where we agreed to disagree on another thread. maybe shes just taking a lot of unpopular sides... we'll find out in a few months when she comes back and we're ALL STILL HERE :D
 

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that is true, i do agree on that. It takes time, and usually a doctor ho knows what they're doing to identify a breed. that's why i loved that find the pitbull quiz, i posted in on my facebook i liked it so much.

how many people actually know what a dogo argentino is?

Although i had a distinct advantage in that one as i used to work at a no kill shelter and i specifically trained/rehabilitated bully breeds for them.

i have trained a lot of former fighting pits and usually they are not people aggressive they are dog aggressive.

Many of them ended up going to families, and some eventually were able to live with other dogs. My favorite bait dog Tanya helped found a pitbull therapy organization with her new family... including a toddler and 2 other pits. There is evidence every day that breed discrimination is not the right answer. Educating people and their pets is.
I absolutly agree that education will be the key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
i have trained a lot of former fighting pits and usually they are not people aggressive they are dog aggressive.
That is one of the MAJOR problems with BSL. People who propose BSL do NOT look at the different types of aggression, but lump them all into the same group. That's not only incorrect to do, but unfair as well.

You are absolutely right, a lot of dogs (of any breed) bred for fighting tend to be dog aggressive, or animal aggressive, but that does NOT equate to people aggression. Some dogs are food aggressive, but that does NOT equate to human aggression. Sometimes herding instincts CAN become aggressive. I have read/heard herding instincts are a modified hunting instinct, thus a form of "aggression". But hunting aggression still is not the same as human aggression. And on and on.

Unfortunately many people do not care to understand this. A dog was bred for dog fighting or bull baiting, that MUST mean it is people aggressive... But a dog bred to hunt and bring down lions... not a danger to society. A dog bred to hunt and bring down wild boar... also not a danger to society. It is a double standard!
 

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I absolutly agree that education will be the key.
i wonder why places don't require dog training/obedience training as part of owning dogs? or at least "dangerous dogs"? wouldn't that be better than breeding them out of existence?
 

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Well, It probably comes down to the financial resources of the community. State and city money is needed everywhere and I don't think that dogs are on the priority lists. I would rather my tax dollars go into education programs for all types of dogs in my area over breed ban enforcement.

How do you enforce taking an obedience course for a dog owner? Is it added to the back of my DL along with being a organ donor? Do I pay to sticker my dog like I do for vehicle registration? If my lil'buddy gets a canine good citizen certificate can I get a rebate from my city or state? How about a sizable discount on my personal liability policy?

Attending a class to meet a requirements doesn't mean that the owner will not make mistakes that allow for tragic stuff to happen. Accidents will happen. Someone has to want to better themselves as a pet's guardian to further reduce the risks that come with owning an animal that is capable of injury to another. Noah is a 120lb marshmallow in my arms but that doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing harm. He just has no reason to utilize his warrior skill set on anything. but uh.. if we meet a bad guy somewhere I hope he has one.

There is a recent event in Houston where a mother left a young child in a swing and the dog got in from an unsecured door and killed the baby. Could it have been avoided? Many say that it could have been. Should the parents be punished further or is the loss of the child enough? Was is fair for one media report to say that it was done by a mutant 150lb rottweiler?
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Some sort of training class requirement would be nice. How it would be managed is the bigger question. In my opinion, if something like this were to be implemented, it should be done so through the local animal control office, much the way pet licensing is done. Dog and owner attend pet training class, dog passes class and gets certificate from trainer, takes certificate to animal control office and gets a tag showing "proof of training", in addition to the "proof of license" or "proof of rabies vaccine" tag(s).

Would this work? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on how it is implemented, and ultimately on the owner. No amount of training is going to "fix" a negligent owner, no matter what kind of dog they have. At the same time, "good" owners will have no opposition to getting their dog properly trained, and in fact may have planned it regardless whether it was a requirement or not.


That article about the child killed by a "rottweiler" proves that people do not know how to identify dogs... according to that link, different reports reported different breed and breed combinations, anything from rottweiler to pit bull to chow - dogs that all look VERY different and are of different sizes. If the dog really weighed 150 pounds... pit bull was NOT its dominant breed (the "pit bull" breeds generally weight 40-70 pounds depending on the exact breed in question and whether it was male or female), and yet that is still mentioned. Once again proof of the media bias - if the dog bites, it is automatically labeled a pit bull.
 

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Unfortunately, in the media the stories that sell and get the papers read are ones with vicious, mutant pit bulls so that well-to-do stable families can read it over the morning paper in their perfect suburban home after its delivered by the local paperboy on bike before school and toot and talk over their steaming hot coffee and croissants. The media will always exaggerate the problem in order to make deadlines and sell stories. . and this involves innocent babies being killed by giant demonoid dogs. :(
 

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I have a retired service dog for my seizures. I am also currently training my second one.

My first one Harley was a mixed breed that happened to find his way to me. Two of the three breeds that made him are labeled "aggressive breeds". The pit bull and wolf hybrids. He was abused before I had him. Bred to be a fighting dog. Only after extensive vet bills and care did I find this out. They nearly killed him on top of weaning him too early. But yet he is the friendliest dog I have ever had and met. So smart and dependable that I was able to train him later on to become a seizure assistance dog. He has been attacked by many dogs in the past. Most of them were non aggressive breeds so to speak. Yet his spirit is strong.
My soon to be second service dog is a Doberman. My mother tried to fight me on the fact that they are all aggressive and cannot be trusted. I simply showed her the hard facts of history. They were bred to help soldiers in war and to help track and find injured people. Then they became working dogs for the disabled. But yet everyone tells me that he cannot help me due to his breed. He is not even a year old and already loves to help me and alert me of my condition before it hits. My 3 month old cat and 1 yr old son are alot meaner than both dogs. The cat and child rule the house so to speak. It's not genetics that make breeds aggressive it's how they are raised and cared for, just like people. There have been bans on places I have lived and where I currently live. But luckily my dogs have been able to stay by myside due to their ability to work. However if the breed was to be wiped out where would that leave those of us who depend on them for medical reasons? There are alot of mixed and full breeds out there that work. A vast majorty of people I know or knew have owned working dogs who were under the "ban list." If they were to be truly banned who would help these people replace their beloved pets/friends/medical help? If there was such a harsh law to wipe them out then another breed will replace the one's that are currently on the list. The bad people who make bad decisions will always find a way it's our job to help speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.
Another thing "pit bulls" were bred for weight pulling not fighting. They are the best wheelchair/mobility assistance breeds around.
 

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First, I find the information presented in this post and the discussion fascinating. Thank you for compiling it and all your responses. That being said, there is also a nature/nuture aspect of individual dogs irrespective of the breed. To further complicate matters, dogs mature at different ages to full maturity, with some breed individual dogs not realizing what their ultimate personality will be until age 5-7, such as in Tibetan Terriers.

So, in considering your choice of dog and aggression, you need to meet the parents of a dog if it is pure bred or try to obtain as much information about any rescue you are considering. Rescues will have gone through temperament testing and will have had plenty of observation by the staff; also research in the 1970's (psychology) with rats have shown that impoverished environments compared with enriched environments produced different behavioral (intelligence) results when genetics was controlled for (if I remember correctly). So you need to be willing to take the time and energy with every dog in your household to stimulate them and work continually on training to teach them impulse control. An excellent book on that subject is "Control Unleashed" which is available on Amazon.

Finally, no single dog, even great dogs, can ever be completely trusted in terms of their ability to be offensively or defensively aggressive. We, as owners, need to be constantly vigilant when out with our dogs to ward off any conflict.
 

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I didnt read it all but these " aggressive " breeds are often the most LOYAL LOVING willing to do anything for you dogs. When I was little we had a rottweiler and I want my kids to grow up with the same breed. Pitts are the most amazingly loyal dog ... all this " aggressive" stuff is BS!!!!! and it makes me mad.
 
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